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datalogging could work as a basis, but you're still left with:-
1) is the data accurate, or has it been tampered with ?
2) TomTom still wouldn't be able to properly utilise the data, it would have to go through TeleAtlas.
Joined: 10/09/2002 17:13:17 Posts: 176 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:06 am Post subject:
Dave wrote:
I'm sure if someone knows at either TeleAtlas or TomTom, they could release a list of roads that aren't in the current map data, or roads that haven't been updated. Anyone want to read a list of perhaps 500,000 roads ? I don't think I would.
I think people we need to bring this back into perspective a little. Data collection takes an immense amount of time and so does surveying. Never expect any new roads in a product for atleast a year.
Most GPS companies have THE LATEST data set from NAVTEQ, TeleAtlas and Ordnance Survey. If they don't then I agree they should stipulate it, most map updates are quarterly with NAVTEQ's being 6 monthly.
You also have the vote to choose with your feet. If you don't want to go with a product because there's no M6 toll road in it, then DON'T!
I think you've missunderstood. I'm talking about expectations. Do you really believe the average consumer, walking into Dixons or hitting the TomTom site for the first time, knows the first thing about data collection? He simply expects that for £500.00 he is going to get something significantly better then his paper map, INCLUDING data that is at least as up to date. If that expectation is unrealistic (and I agree that it is), then it is TomTom's responsibility to correct it, not to take advantage of it.
To suggest that you'd need to read a list of all roads included is ridiculous. All they need to do is publish a simple statement that explains exactly what you have explained; that electronic map data collection is not the same as paper data collection (it can't reasonably be done from planning data for example), and that as a result "in order to offer the most accurate possible experience", some current roads might not appear, even in the "latest" data. Its very possible to put a possitive slant on it without being missleading.
Dave, you can't vote with your feet when the issue is impossible to find before you've voted. You're assuming that every purchaser is as clued up as you are. I suggest you do a straw pole of non-gps savvy people, and ask them how up to date a map based on "data as of October 2003" would be. Ask them if they think an estate 7 years old, and a major one 1 year old, would be included. As an aside, you could also ask them if, faced with a claim that a map covers "100% of the population", they'd expect their own street to be included?
Re data collection, one of the issues I keep coming across is that a road does appear, but is listed as "un-named road", so is impossible to find. This is particularly true on housing and industrial estates, even long established ones, and could be corrected without having to physically visit the road. In other words, that particular issue is no more difficult for an electronic map provider to resolve than it is for a paper map provider.[/b]
Mark, way before I started driving when I used to read maps as a kid, I always knew that the latest maps that you'd buy at WH Smiths or even a petrol station were out of date, even though they had the current year on them. Whether it was small roads, or large roads. My expectations of SatNav are no more and no less. If anyone thinks it's going to be perfect and have 100% of roads covered then there's something seriously wrong in their logic, -or- they walk (or drive) around with their eyes closed all the time! There will always be roads out of date, either because of surveying delays or because it's just been missed. One of my mates houses on a housing estate wasn't on paper maps for near on 6 years.
No company that I'm aware of will ever make customers aware of negative points in their products. It's bad marketing. And it's not just TomTom who don't have M6 coverage it's most other applications using NAVTEQ and TeleAtlas. Now, if it were just TomTom that somehow screwed up the data, then I think everyone would have a cause for concern and expect something back from TomTom like with what Mapopolis did in their release last year for UK users. Also if it were just Navman for instance that didn't have M6 coverage, then this would also be bad because Navman are in the UK and should know better because they should know what major roads are being developed as they'll hear it in the news as they live here. I doubt TomTom are aware of most new roads like we're not aware of what roads are being developed in Netherlands.
Do you really think that TeleAtlas are going to say to TomTom (Ah, sorry guys, we haven't got the new M6 in there yet ?) So how do you expect TomTom to magically know about roads be it minor or major when they're in a foreign country. They rely on the geodata provider like they should do. TomTom could make an announcement now that they know the M6 is not covered, but seeing that no other company has it included from what I've seen, it really isn't going to make much difference to most and other companies also won't follow suit so people will instead of buying TomTom will buy Destinator or CoPilot to find exactly the same problem.
Nothing is perfect in life, if it were we wouldn't be in existence because we are all human and we do make mistakes!
Joined: Mar 18, 2004 Posts: 753 Location: Biggleswade, BEDS
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject:
This is very similar to the TomTom V2 issue and postcodes ie selling something that does not exist or works incorrectly.
As can be seen from TomTom's Customer Service Dept. they have no intention of fixing it and like the V2 postcode issues we'll all have to wait until V4 for this to be corrected.
TomTom if you are reading this and I'm wrong please let us all know...
Joined: 10/09/2002 17:13:17 Posts: 176 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:40 pm Post subject:
Quote:
So how do you expect TomTom to magically know about roads be it minor or major when they're in a foreign country.
Umm, well if a navigation company don't, there's no hope for the rest of us! They choose to make a product for the UK, so their location is irrelevant. It's not magic, it's proper product development.
But anyway, bottom line is they don't need to. They just need to know that the way the data is collected means that some major and many minor roads will be missing, and make a statement that explains that. The specific roads involved don't matter. As I said, it can have a positive spin. "In order to ensure maximum acuracy...". "So that navigator does not direct you down raods that are not complete...." etc etc etc.
You and I will never agree on this. You see TomTom as a company who are doing their best, victims of p*$$ poor suppliers, with customers who should know better than to expect more. I see them as a commercial concern who should, but probably never will, take responsibility for what they sell, and who will use any (almost) legal trick in the book to sell as many copies as possible knowing it's not that simple to switch once you've made your bed.
As Speedcam says, it's just like the claims that they supported UK postcodes in V2, which they've never appologised for, and which they only corrected in the background after most of us had given them our money. They made a big thing of postcode support, yet it took 5 e-mails before they admitted that they had claimed it was there, and another two before they offered a refund (which I didn't take). An honerable company could easily have at least put a statement on this site saying thay had made an error, were sorry, and offering to give a refund of the upgrade fee to anyone who'd bought a copy on the basis of their false claim. It would have done them more good than harm - I doubt few would have taken them up on it.
At the risk of extending this debate well past it's "before before date" it seems as if Dave is finding it necessary to defend TomTom and their actions.
I do not understand why this needs to be the case.
The fact of the matter is that there are some customers of TomTom that are unhappy with the way that TomTom have dealt with the design, release and support of their product. We know this it true, as some of them have posted here.
Sure, we can all point to other poor products out there, but that is missing the point. Again, there are bound to be many happy campers too. But it it adds little to tell the aggrieved buyers that they should just take it or leave it. They have a valid point of view, one which if acted upon would improve matters for all TomTom customers.
The fact that it seems TTN3 is buggy (freezes are mentioned in the PocketGPSWorld review), is only annually updated, and misses major roads in its most recent map data is a poor situation.
It is not the case that this is a necessary state of affairs (at least not in all respects).
The software quality ought to be better - it looks like a retrograde step from TTN2 - and the bugs should be acknowledged, but they are not.
We believe that TeleAtlas and Navteq have more recent map data (a post on here suggested that the Garmin iQue now includes the M6 Toll Road) that TomTom could use as an update. We know that other companies do this - Alturion issue regular updates to map data for a subscription fee of 49 Euros (I think) per year, the same as TomTom charge for upgrading to their next release once a year (maybe). I for one would consider this kind of subscription model to be fair, and I would pay this kind of sum to keep (more) up to date.
As for whether these companies should be aware of road building in the countries they cover, I'd say it is TeleAtlas's job to know - what else do they do but geodata? And TomTom should be seeking to offer their customers the best service they can.
In summary, I don't see why folks in these forums shouldn't lobby TomTom for updates with the backing of most readers (and site maintainers). Even if you are happy with the service you have, and don''t think it would have any chance of succeeding, why not support the aggrieved user base in the hope of a better result for us all?
This is very similar to the TomTom V2 issue and postcodes ie selling something that does not exist or works incorrectly.
As can be seen from TomTom's Customer Service Dept. they have no intention of fixing it and like the V2 postcode issues we'll all have to wait until V4 for this to be corrected.
TomTom if you are reading this and I'm wrong please let us all know...
SpeedCam, it's not similar to the TomTom V2 Postcode issue, they were clearly stating Postcode support to start with. They are not claiming that the M6 toll road IS in TTN3 are they ?
For about the 150th time, it's not a TomTom issue. It's a TeleAtlas issue!!! TomTom cannot fix it as they are not cartographers! You'll have to wait for TeleAtlas to add support for it! When they do and they sell it to their customers, e.g. Map 24, Navman and TomTom then be sure to see it in the next release of each of these software.
Mark R Penn wrote:
But anyway, bottom line is they don't need to. They just need to know that the way the data is collected means that some major and many minor roads will be missing, and make a statement that explains that............You and I will never agree on this. You see TomTom as a company who are doing their best, victims of p*$$ poor suppliers, with customers who should know better than to expect more.
I do agree that some sort of disclaimer should be put on all products (or people need to be sensible about things). That would include everything from paper maps to fully blown in-car systems, but I think in most peoples minds they will not expect very new roads to be on a product. I do agree that really a year is more than enough time to get these updates out to companies like TomTom and there should be atleast 6 monthly map updates on a subscription based service.
TomTom, Navman and all that use TeleAtlas and NAVTEQ can only supply the roads that they're given, no more and no less (hopefully not less).
Mark R Penn wrote:
As Speedcam says, it's just like the claims that they supported UK postcodes in V2, which they've never appologised for, and which they only corrected in the background after most of us had given them our money.
I totally agree, that was poor and if you remember we gave TomTom a right grilling over this also! Like I said earlier in this post to SpeedCam, TomTom haven't said that the M6 is supported, so it's not the same situation.
Mark R Penn wrote:
An honerable company could easily have at least put a statement on this site saying thay had made an error, were sorry, and offering to give a refund of the upgrade fee to anyone who'd bought a copy on the basis of their false claim.
Yes they could have with the postcode support I agree, but they haven't made an error on the M6 toll road, so why should they apologise ? That's like you apologising to a shop keeper if a relative stole something from their shop. TomTom have never claimed that the M6 has been covered!
Some companies are backwards in not admitting their wrong, and I do agree that TomTom is a company that has extremely bad communication both with the media and with it's customers, but the M6 toll road issue is with TeleAtlas's. If TomTom had stated that the M6 was covered and it wasn't then I and the rest of the TEAM would be the first to step up and request that TomTom change their material. We're not shy at coming forward as you well know, sometimes it can do more damage than good, but we will stick up for everyone here if false claims are made.
At the risk of extending this debate well past it's "before before date" it seems as if Dave is finding it necessary to defend TomTom and their actions.
I do not understand why this needs to be the case.
The fact of the matter is that there are some customers of TomTom that are unhappy with the way that TomTom have dealt with the design, release and support of their product. We know this it true, as some of them have posted here.
Firstly I'm only defending TomTom because they have done absolutely nothing wrong here. We're talking about the M6 toll road! TomTom have made no claim whatsoever that the Toll Road is in there, so WHY should you expect it is ? Just because I have a DVDR drive in my laptop, why should I think it's supported by WinXP Kernel or Linux Kernel ? If TomTom have made a claim that it is publically then I'll be the first to jump on them and put it right.
NMatthew wrote:
The fact that it seems TTN3 is buggy (freezes are mentioned in the PocketGPSWorld review), is only annually updated, and misses major roads in its most recent map data is a poor situation.
I agree with the freezes, it's not good. But annually updated and missing major roads is the same with 99% of products so you aren't going to see much difference there.
Joined: 10/09/2002 17:13:17 Posts: 176 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:51 pm Post subject:
Dave,
I don't know how to say it any clearer - we (at least I) are NOT talking about the M6 toll specifically. We are talking about the fact that TomTom claim that the map data is "as of October 2003", without making it clear what that means in the real world. My opinion is that that is both wrong (so they HAVE done something wrong), and deliberate.
I find it difficult to understand why you continue to argue that peoples expectations are what is at fault ("or people need to be sensible about things"), when you run a site that is covered in posts from people who hold exactly those expectations? It is NOT like me appologising to the shopkeeper - the point you continuously miss is that TomTom are a commercial concern, and as such have both moral AND legal responsibility for what they choose to sell, whether they produce it or not. If you don't think that's true, then you need to brush up on your consumer law. "I didn't make it mate" is no defence, as they are deamed to be experts in their chosen field, while the consumer is not.
Look up "responsible" and "fault" in the thesaurus - they are NOT the same thing. It's not your "fault" if I post something offensive here, but it is your "responsibility". It's not the governments "fault" that there are more pensioners than ever, but it is their "responsibility" to do something about it. Etc etc etc.
What exactly do you think we should do? We can't put any pressure on Teleatlas to do better, as we have no line of communication with them. We CAN put pressure on TomTom though, and if we put enough then they in turn WILL put pressure on Teleatlas. The alternative is to squeak like a mouse, and wait for them to honour us with a product that meets widely held expectations.
Lets try to put it in a way that might suit you better; I think TomTom are c&*£ because they haven't backed us up in our complaints to Teleatlas. Is that more comfortable? It's the same thing, but maybe it's closer to your position?
I'm sorry if this sounds agressive towards you Dave, I don't mean it to be, but do find it a little annoying that you choose to dilute the pressure that a site like this could put on the GPS companies to come up to scratch. I know you do loads, but think it's not your place to defend them. Explain the facts of course, but if the reply from a significant number is "well we understand, but don't think we should accept that status quo", then I think you should be supporting those calls. When you are told "it's not our fault, it's Teleatlas", why aren't you asking them "so, as you sell the data to us, what are you doing to put pressure on Teleatlas, or to find an alternative?"
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject:
Dave wrote:
For about the 150th time, it's not a TomTom issue. It's a TeleAtlas issue!!! TomTom cannot fix it as they are not cartographers! You'll have to wait for TeleAtlas to add support for it!
The problem is that the customer has a contract with Tom Tom and not with TeleAtlas or NAVTEQ or anyone else. If customers are unhappy with the product then it's the supplier who gets it. The quality of the maps will only improve if customers demand it.
Companies like Tom Tom are in a unique position to put pressure on TeleAtlas/NAVTEQ to improve their products. A few years ago when sat nav had a real "wow" factor, people would put up with minor map errors. These days sat nav is widely used and people are demanding more.
For Tom Tom (and other suppliers, I am not having a go at TT specifically) to wring their hands and say that there is nothing they can do about it is a complete cop out. It's like a pub selling you a bad pint of beer and then telling everyone that they can do nothing since that is how the brewery made it.
I don't know how to say it any clearer - we (at least I) are NOT talking about the M6 toll specifically. We are talking about the fact that TomTom claim that the map data is "as of October 2003", without making it clear what that means in the real world. My opinion is that that is both wrong (so they HAVE done something wrong), and deliberate.
Well I suggest you email the MD of TomTom in that case. Bitching about it here is not going to make a blind bit of difference. Talk to TomTom! All I can say is the data is as current as October 2003. If you don't like the way that surveying and geo positioning is done, then go and lobby TeleAtlas about it! There are ways you can voice your opinion, but all you're doing is sitting here bitching about it. Do something constructive if you feel that strong about it!
Quote:
Look up "responsible" and "fault" in the thesaurus - they are NOT the same thing. It's not your "fault" if I post something offensive here, but it is your "responsibility". It's not the governments "fault" that there are more pensioners than ever, but it is their "responsibility" to do something about it. Etc etc etc.
Apples and oranges. You have every possible way to complain but you choose not to, you just sit here and winge winge winge. Go complain to TomTom and vent your frustrations.
Quote:
What exactly do you think we should do? We can't put any pressure on Teleatlas to do better, as we have no line of communication with them.
Yes you can put pressure on TeleAtlas, they have complaints procedures. Open your eyes! But I'll tell you now, nothing is going to change, like I've said before its the hole process of how surveying is done. If you want to change the world to stop global opression, war, dictatorships you can certainly try, but it isn't going to happen overnight.
Quote:
Lets try to put it in a way that might suit you better; I think TomTom are c&*£ because they haven't backed us up in our complaints to Teleatlas. Is that more comfortable? It's the same thing, but maybe it's closer to your position?
And like I have said before, you are not forced to buy their program. Go to Navman or CoPilot, or Mapopolis. Oh wait, why won't you ? Because they're all in the same boat!!!
Quote:
I'm sorry if this sounds agressive towards you Dave, I don't mean it to be, but do find it a little annoying that you choose to dilute the pressure that a site like this could put on the GPS companies to come up to scratch. I know you do loads, but think it's not your place to defend them.
We're not diluting the pressure, all along I have stated the facts as clearly and plainly as possible but a small selection of people here choose to cover their hands over their ears everytime I say it. Whether TomTom choose NAVTEQ or TeleAtlas, they'll have the same problem! It's that simple! TomTom have now ay of changing this. Lobby NAVTEQ and TeleAtlas. I don't know how many times I have to keep bashing my head against a brick wall!
Quote:
When you are told "it's not our fault, it's Teleatlas", why aren't you asking them "so, as you sell the data to us, what are you doing to put pressure on Teleatlas, or to find an alternative?"
We have put pressure on TeleAtlas and their response is exactly the same as I have been quoting all this time. It takes time to geosurvey, some roads will make it into the latest release, some won't. NAVTEQ and TeleAtlas are in the same boat. If you don't like how map surveying is done, then don't use mapping products (including paper maps!)
Quote:
And do you find that acceptable? If you do, I'm surprised. If you don't, then what contribution can you make to changing the sittuation?
Lobbying TeleAtlas. No wait, been there, done that. So now it's your chance. You feel strongly about it, you go and talk to TeleAtlas! Don't just sit here waiting to be spoon fed all the time!
The problem is that the customer has a contract with Tom Tom and not with TeleAtlas or NAVTEQ or anyone else. If customers are unhappy with the product then it's the supplier who gets it. The quality of the maps will only improve if customers demand it.
I see no where that you or anyone else has signed a contract with TomTom ?
Quote:
Companies like Tom Tom are in a unique position to put pressure on TeleAtlas/NAVTEQ to improve their products. A few years ago when sat nav had a real "wow" factor, people would put up with minor map errors. These days sat nav is widely used and people are demanding more.
I agree, they can put more pressure that you or I, so why aren't you complaining TO TomTom asking them to put pressure on TeleAtlas ?
There is a contract between software vendors and their customers of course. The customer pays a fee for the right to use the product and the vendor has some obligations with regard to approriate legislation, including things like fitness for purpose. Just because there is no individual per-customer contract with signatures, does not make it any less a contract. There is an exchange of goods and services (right to use software and maps in this case) for a consideration (the price we pay).
It is fairly common in the software industry that the end user license agreement that we agree to (when either opening the package or activating the software) seeks to absolve the vendor of any responsibility for consequences of the use of the product. For example, it's not Microsoft's fault if you lose business when Word auto-corrects your spelling in an inappropriate way in a contract you are writeing and you don't notice.
In this case neither TomTom nor TeleAtlas by proxy have sold us a complete dog, in that it does (mostly) work. I'd argue that the freezings in TTN3, if not resolved soon, do impact fitness for purpose, but the map quality issue does not render the product completely unfit. Where there is an issue is with marketing and expectations. TomTom know that roads now built may not appear in their products until 2005 or 2006. They have no control (and maybe only slight influence) over when and how TeleAtlas do their data capture, but they do know how it works, more so than the man in the street.
Despite the assertion that it won't make a blind bit of difference it is my intention to write to both TomTom and TeleAtlas to express my view that the timescale for updates and consistency of map quality are let's say, areas that could be improved. If everyone on here followed suit, then at least we will have made our views known.
Dave, do you have appropriate e-mail addresses for TomTom and TeleAtlas. I haven't been able to locate one for TomTom from their site, apart from the support question things, which has not elicited a response in the past. The most appropriate thing on the TeleAtlas site seems to be a feedback form, also that has not elicited a response (so far).
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This is very similar to the TomTom V2 issue and postcodes ie selling something that does not exist or works incorrectly.
