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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: S90i an expensive mistake?
Like many many people, I have a real problem with the 12k limit of poi's since adding the full camera list (and ignoring the warning) the unit crashes for no apparent reason. I have also lost the wav warning I loaded, again like others.
Having wandered through this forum last night and read others problems I phoned Navman support today. Their answer (as all support staff say) was to press and hold the power button for 10 seconds to perform a special reboot. The wavs are back, I must now try to see if it still crashes although I feel it probably will. I asked about the forthcoming software update and the support person became very coy and would not admit as to what bugs it would address.
An expensive bit of kit with poor software and poor support but rated relatively highly in PCW magazine last month.
Just get rid of all mobile cameras and you'll be well within the allowed limit.
Having mobile camera locations sounds like a good idea at first but when you think about it, those locations will be empty most of the time, and tens of thousands of new ones are easily created -- they can be put almost anywhere. I'd keep just fixed ones because you know that you have to be extra careful there every time, and just keep to the speed limit elsewhere.
If you really must have mobile camera locations, you can filtering out anything that's not not close to the area where you drive -- even professional drivers that make thousands of miles every week usually have fixed routes.
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:42 am Post subject:
I'm in the midst of compiling the S90i review and I 'm afraid it's not complimentary. As a flagship product it leaves a lot to be desired. The software is OK but not great, I found the interface rather lethargic and the device slow to acquire a signal. I'm also still not convinced of the usefulness of Navpix. It's a shame and a missed opportunity. However, as Mio have decided to use the SmartST software across all their brands now we can at least hope for the software to be developed over time.
With regard to the 12,000 POI limit issue, deleting or not installing mobiles should only ever be a short term fix. It is not one I would condone long term, Navman MUST fix the bug with an update. No other device suffers this limitation. Didn't the recent Service Pack cure this issue?
Just consider that Mobile sites are by far the ones most likely to catch the unwary driver and our database is one of if not the most accurate record of their locations.
Camera partnerships have to agree locations that they use and so they cannot be put 'almost anywhere'. I would far rather endless warnings of the possibility that a mobile site exists which in itself reminds me to watch my speed than to leave out the mobile warnings completely. That would rather defeat the object of the database! _________________ Darren Griffin
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: S90i an expensive mistake?
jassythedog wrote:
An expensive bit of kit with poor software and poor support but rated relatively highly in PCW magazine last month.
You should only use "professional" reviews as a rough guide to the functionality as they're often done very quickly without any real attention to detail. Many of the S90i faults do not become apparent until you start using it intensively. I completely agree with most of Darren's points (though I have found a whole load of other faults, too). The good news is that most of them can be fixed through software patches... the bad news is that NavMan don't seem to acknowledge that there are any faults.
Is the S90i "an expensive mistake"? At the moment, yes - but NavMan have it in their power to significantly remedy this.
Darren: You mentioned a recent Service Pack. If you mean the one available only from NavMan's Australian site, I believe that was simply to cure the heavily-criticised map routing problems in that country.
--
Cheers,
Dave
Last edited by DaveMatthews on Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: S90i an expensive mistake?
DaveMatthews wrote:
Darren: You mentioned a recent Service Pack. If you mean the one available only from NavMan's Australian site, I believe that was simply to cure the heavily-criticised map routing problems in that country.
Ah right, I recalled mention of one but couldn't find it. What other issues have you discovered? _________________ Darren Griffin
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: S90i an expensive mistake?
Darren wrote:
DaveMatthews wrote:
Darren: You mentioned a recent Service Pack. If you mean the one available only from NavMan's Australian site, I believe that was simply to cure the heavily-criticised map routing problems in that country.
Ah right, I recalled mention of one but couldn't find it. What other issues have you discovered?
Well you can have a look at my review on Amazon UK for a start but since I wrote it I've uncovered further problems (the ability to update the review isn't working for some reason). When I get home this evening I'll drop you a PM. It will be interesting to compare notes!
Joined: 15/07/2003 22:59:27 Posts: 1050 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Warnings
I have to disagree - endless warnings make you lathargic to the warning system, the Navman system of directional notification, only when close to or exceeding the limit IS better. It is technically superior, and far more useful in practise
The Navman can also warn you when you are exceeding limits on most roads
Between the two Navman solutions, you need not face a speeding ticket - and without the need to through your GPS unit out of the window, as with the PGPSW Mobile Database warnings (the static element is great)
There are only two ideal situations - either daily updates with accurate mobile location, supplied via the police or just not speeding!
As far as the Navman s90i goes, I've used GPS systems for years, have several recent or up to date systems at the moment, including the s90i and access to even more in the office, and the s90i is the only one I use day in day out; if i jump into another vehicle in work, which maybe has a TomTom or Mio system in it, I tend to spend the day swearing at the unit. The Navman does the job superbly
In addition, I use Navpix almost daily to identify new house developement sites, and would be lost (used to be lost!!!) without it
The POI limit isn't an issue for anyone outside of PGPSW speed camera database, although I agree it shoud be there anyhow
Joined: 15/07/2003 22:59:27 Posts: 1050 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Review
I would say the summary of Dave's "review" covers it better than the descriptive
Quote:
In summary:
+ True "all-in-one" solution
+ Start-up and GPS fix times reasonably quick
+ Screen clarity excellent
+ Good range of audio volume level
+ Text-to-Speech for road names excellent
+ Vocal instructions clear and timely
+ Software/hardware stability faultless
+ Traffic alert functionality implemented well
+ Area-to-avoid feature highly useful
+ Route calculation fast
+ Windscreen cradle excellent
- TeleAtlas mapping errors
- POI feature poorly implemented and the data itself is useless for emergency situations
- "Standard car" only vehicle option and no feature to specify speed preferences
- Some keypress operations cumbersome to perform and/or lack intuitiveness
- Zoom feature poorly implemented
- Multi-stop trips poorly implemented
- Very slow to recognise when driver has diverged from planned route
- Cost-cutting proprietary TMC/headphone socket arrangement
- Mains charger not included
I would say the text is a bit harse on the Navman, because if you've used any other current system, it's more accurate with vocal and on screen instructions imho
Bare in mind that TomTom, Mio and many others (Garmin and Navigon excepted) use TeleAtlas mapping - and while I used to find Navteq postcoding better, now find TeleAtlas 2007.4 better than Navteq 2007 q1
The Multi-stop trip IS combersome, I too was used to the Navigon system which is a breeze. Navman needs to copy their way of doing things!
TMC is best I've used, often not requiring a ariel lead even down here in South Wales!
Zoom is good - roundabouts and turns show up so clearly with it's 3D directional arrows and walls that it's difficult to go wrong
Recalculations speeds will be sorted by Service Pack 1 - although I only find them slow if you've all the POIs selected
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Review
xtraseller wrote:
TMC is best I've used, often not requiring a ariel lead even down here in South Wales!
After I wrote that review - as I say, Amazon won't allow me to update it - I realised that I'd overlooked something blindingly obvious: NavMan's TMC implementation doesn't include Projected Delay information which, for many situations, almost completely undermines the point of having TMC. Other manufacturers include it - why not NavMan?
xtraseller wrote:
Zoom is good - roundabouts and turns show up so clearly with it's 3D directional arrows and walls that it's difficult to go wrong
Again, this is something I would like to clarify in my review. What I was referring to was the features to "manually" slide and zoom about the map display which I find to be clunky and cumbersome on the S90i.
xtraseller wrote:
if you've used any other current system, it's more accurate with vocal and on screen instructions imho
I'd say it's OK but my old Navigon MobileNavigator 4 is slightly better in the timeliness of its visual and vocal cues for road turns. I think that's because it is more accurate in pinpointing my position - it generally "lags" by about 1.5 seconds, whereas the S90i is, on average, about 3 seconds behind.
xtraseller wrote:
Recalculations speeds will be sorted by Service Pack 1
For me that's the least of the problems that the S90i has. If that is the only issue the SP is going to address, my S90i will be mothballed. I'll go back to using my old MN4 - the maps are well out of date and it doesn't have Text-To-Speech but, overall, it's far more of a pleasure to use.
xtraseller wrote:
although I only find them slow if you've all the POIs selected
I concur but even with all except the Speed Camera POIs deselected, it's still far, far slower than MN4 - in terms of both recognising when the driver has diverged from the planned route and also that of the recalc itself.
To return to a comment I made earlier, do you find that if you switch off all POI's, the unit is more accurate at pinpointing your current position as you drive along? In theory the GPS electronics should be superior to those of MN4, so I'm wondering if the greater "lag" I see with the S90i is simply down to how quickly it updates the map view.
Joined: 15/07/2003 22:59:27 Posts: 1050 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject:
Quote:
After I wrote that review - as I say, Amazon won't allow me to update it - I realised that I'd overlooked something blindingly obvious: NavMan's TMC implementation doesn't include Projected Delay information which, for many situations, almost completely undermines the point of having TMC. Other manufacturers include it - why not NavMan?
I guess it depends on the information received? Now living in South Wales we don't get that much traffic problems on route, so normally I leave it alone but over some storms recently I switched it on, and believe it advised me of delays and even how old the data was
Quote:
I'd say it's OK but my old Navigon MobileNavigator 4 is slightly better in the timeliness of its visual and vocal cues for road turns. I think that's because it is more accurate in pinpointing my position - it generally "lags" by about 1.5 seconds, whereas the S90i is, on average, about 3 seconds behind. For me that's the least of the problems that the S90i has. If that is the only issue the SP is going to address, my S90i will be mothballed. I'll go back to using my old MN4 - the maps are well out of date and it doesn't have Text-To-Speech but, overall, it's far more of a pleasure to use
Your problem lies with the POI issue the Navman have admited to having and promise to sort out with SP1 (I accept it should not be there in the first place, but if we all were perfect...!). As an owner of a Navigon Pocket Loox n100 (MN6) and Navigon 7110 (MN6.5) I can assure you that the Navman is much quicker in responding to my actions, and with data entry. The current Navigon systems are really combersome, although haven't used MN4 you are refering to
I think when the poi issue is resolved, you will change your mind over the Navman because I really believe it's got the best "core" GPS software outthere - and if they spend the development time on it now with Mio, I think we'll find it racing ahead
I guess it depends on the information received? Now living in South Wales we don't get that much traffic problems on route, so normally I leave it alone but over some storms recently I switched it on, and believe it advised me of delays
I think you'll only get delay information if it happens to have been keyed in to the general description field. Apparently there is a separate data field for projected delay information but NavMan chose to ignore it.
xtraseller wrote:
and even how old the data was
That feature is either completely pointless or it's not working properly. For the last four weeks TMC has been telling me about various bits of roadworks around north Lancashire... yet for each of these incidents, it only ever says the information is from "0 minutes ago" or "1 miniute ago" or "2 minutes ago". I'm guessing here that this data is either not used correctly by iTIS in the UK or it's a bug in the S90i software.
xtraseller wrote:
Your problem lies with the POI issue the Navman have admited to having and promise to sort out with SP1
Well that's certainly a start!
xtraseller wrote:
As an owner of a Navigon Pocket Loox n100 (MN6) and Navigon 7110 (MN6.5) I can assure you that the Navman is much quicker in responding to my actions, and with data entry.
Apparently the problem with the Navigon 7110 system is that it really only responds well to the use of a stylus - it seems to get confused when relatively large objects such as fingertips are used!
xtraseller wrote:
I think when the poi issue is resolved, you will change your mind over the Navman because I really believe it's got the best "core" GPS software outthere - and if they spend the development time on it now with Mio, I think we'll find it racing ahead
I can't see me changing my mind - as I said, for me the re-calc issue is the least of its problems. However I completely agree with your view that it has the best overall "core" functionality... indeed the biggest tragedy of the S90i (and, presumably, the rest of the S-series) is that the "core" ideas are let down by poor user interface and/or the absence of some minor but useful feature that users of rival systems would take for granted (the TMC Delay information being a prime example). It's the SatNav equivalent of sticking a Rolls-Royce engine into a Lada. In that sense the S90i is both the best and the worst SatNav system I've ever used!
With regard to the 12,000 POI limit issue [...] Navman MUST fix the bug with an update.
Bug? Desktop warns you about the limit so whatever you may think about it, it is more of a feature -- something Navman knew about and was happy with it at the time (although you may not be, and Navman may have changed its view since).
12k limit is an issue only for UK users that use PGPSW speedcam database -- the rest of the world and UK users that do not use PGPSW speedcam database never hit 12k limit and have no problem with it. I understand it's frustrating for you, but it doesn't affect most of the users.
Since sorting out mobile speed cameras into blocks is very easily done, maybe PGPSW would like to help Navman's UK users by splitting mobile speed cameras into blocks covering different areas so that they can be loaded selectively?
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