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Joined: Jan 04, 2006 Posts: 9323 Location: Durham, UK
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject:
Quote:
As for Police Patrols being in the area of the speeding offences, well that would be simple. All we need are about 1,000,000 extra cops.
Yes it would be great to put Police in the right place at the right time, but there are tens of thousands of places throughout the UK. Which one should we be at ?
So how was it done BEFORE cameras???
Quote:
You will never prevent cloned plates. It is getting more and more difficult to have a plate made, but what's to stop someone cutting a piece of perspex and sticking numbers and letters available from any DIY store onto it ? How do you prevent that ?
I think you're missing the point. The point isn't how do you prevent it but how do you catch those that do it? Of course you can't prevent or solve all crime but cameras only catch the easy prey and not the hard core criminals. Someone who drives slightly over the speed will get points and fine. Someone who is drunk, on their phone, in a stolen / cloned / un-taxed / uninsured car gets nothing..... All cameras will do is provide the police with pictures of someone doing it but they have no way of pursuing or stopping that person WHILST they commit the crime. Then they disappear and change the plates and the Police have no idea who they are / were.
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 581 Location: Medway Towns, Kent
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject:
Its not just cars that get their plates cloned, a company I work for got a bill from the London Congestion Charging people for one of their lorries and they then had to prove that their lorry was actually in Norfolk on the day in question.
theripper
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject:
PaulB2005 wrote:
So how was it done BEFORE cameras???
It wasn't done. That's the point of cameras. If they can 'Police' then Police don't have to. I'm not defending cameras per say. In some circumstances they are fantastic, in others they are stupid and totally pointless. On their own as an answer to speeding countrywide, they are no good and old fashioned Policing rules.
However, in recent years, the Police Forces, like other public services, have become run like businesses, with cost cutting, best use, budgets, etc etc..
When I joined up, it was a disciplined and respected service (in the main) and over the past twenty years or so, I have seen it go downhill. Policing is not a business and should not be treated as such. It is fandamentally wrong.
PaulB2005 wrote:
Someone who drives slightly over the speed will get points and fine. Someone who is drunk, on their phone, in a stolen / cloned / un-taxed / uninsured car gets nothing..... All cameras will do is provide the police with pictures of someone doing it but they have no way of pursuing or stopping that person WHILST they commit the crime. Then they disappear and change the plates and the Police have no idea who they are / were.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying, but that in itself is not a reason to abandon cameras. As I said before they do have their place.
The ethos behind the camera is not to make money (contrary to popular belief) although I appreciate it may seem like that at times. They are their because studies repeatedly show that inappropriate speed is a major factor in accidents where death or serious injury results. Therefore on Government instruction, Police Forces have had to make efforts to reduce these types of accidents significantly. One way is by putting speed cameras at locations proven to be a significant risk.
It is not cost effective to have Police officers at every location where speed is a problem. The placing of cameras can therefore free up resources to do what the public wants us to do.
Rant Over.
For the record and getting back to the thread. Our Force have no fixed speed cameras which photograph from the front. Our only forward facing cameras are the lasers linked ones used by the Safety Camera Partnership.
Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 14893 Location: Keynsham
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject:
999tommo wrote:
When I joined up, it was a disciplined and respected service (in the main) and over the past twenty years or so, I have seen it go downhill.
I have a theory it started going downhill when Margaret Thatcher used the police to break up the unions (e.g. miners). A lot of people started to see the police as no longer looking out for the people. _________________ Dennis
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject:
Stargate2006 wrote:
Hi,
I understand the point of view here.
But there one thing, the speed camera is not allowed to flashed at the front of brighter light blub flashing at the face would cause a person go blind of black and white and crash at the back of the car. The safely camera parthership should know this and should never allowed to do this, otherwise they get the blame for this by the familys sued them of their belove one is gone blame by the safety parthership act stuiped never learn of it.
So the speed camera is not allowed to flashed at the front of causing many peoples go blind as accidents higher death rates.
Yes, but the safety camera partnership use a laser and camera with video, which does not flash at all. They take three pictures, one when the speed is detected (this can be quite a considerable distance from the equipment) a second when the vehicle is closer, and a third to get the identity of the driver. _________________ Tommo...
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:50 am Post subject:
theripper wrote:
Its not just cars that get their plates cloned, a company I work for got a bill from the London Congestion Charging people for one of their lorries and they then had to prove that their lorry was actually in Norfolk on the day in question.
theripper
aaahhhh, but how do we know that the lorry in Norfolk wasn't the one with cloned pates??
This emphasises the problem I highlighted in a previous post about the burden of proof and motoring offences carrying a "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy instead of the preferred "innocent until proven guilty" approach.
It's like identity fraud - you don't know it's happened until it's much too late and then it's a burger of a job to get your name cleared.
....and they say "crime doesn't pay", well if crime doesn't pay then how come so many people are earning a hell of a lot more from a dishonest living then I am for working my ***** off every day, paying my taxes etc. Clearly, crime DOES pay otherwise there would be no incentive _________________ Andy
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Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15145 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:04 am Post subject:
999tommo wrote:
It is getting more and more difficult to have a plate made, but what's to stop someone cutting a piece of perspex and sticking numbers and letters available from any DIY store onto it ? How do you prevent that ?
even easier is just going online and ordering a 'show plate' for which you need no proof of ownership...
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:
MaFt wrote:
999tommo wrote:
It is getting more and more difficult to have a plate made, but what's to stop someone cutting a piece of perspex and sticking numbers and letters available from any DIY store onto it ? How do you prevent that ?
even easier is just going online and ordering a 'show plate' for which you need no proof of ownership...
MaFt
That's right, but the slant was that we should be clamping down on easy availabliity of plates. I was assuming that online ordering would be a thing of the past, but it would still be possible to 'make' a plate, so there is currently no fool proof method.
GPS_fan wrote:
This emphasises the problem I highlighted in a previous post about the burden of proof and motoring offences carrying a "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy instead of the preferred "innocent until proven guilty" approach.
I don't agree. If you are stopped for a road traffic offence, you may be offered a fixed penalty ticket. This does not mean you 'ARE' guilty. The reason for it's issue is to prevent minor offences taking up court time. Only if you choose to pay the ticket, are you accepting that you were guilty. If you don't want to accept this, you don't pay the ticket and take your day in court, where they will have to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt' that you are guilty of the offence.
As for cameras and notices of intended prosecution, nobody is saying you are guilty. All they are saying is a vehicle bearing your registration number committed an offence. You being the registered keeper are given the opportunity to accept it was you or to name someone else under Section 172 RTA. Also in the case of a cloned vehicle, then you can provide evidence that it was not your car. If it was your car but not you driving, you being the owner, should be in a position to be able to identify who had the car. _________________ Tommo...
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:
999tommo wrote:
I don't agree. If you are stopped for a road traffic offence, you may be offered a fixed penalty ticket. This does not mean you 'ARE' guilty.
OK, I stand corrected by somebody who clearly knows a hell of a lot more about this than me.
I'll go and hide away under Section xyz of the Ignorance Act 2007
Having said that:
999tommo wrote:
If it was your car but not you driving, you being the owner, should be in a position to be able to identify who had the car.
Isn't this like a known burglar being forced to say who committed a crime if it wasn't them?
In the case of burglary, for example, police have to prove beyond reasonable doubt - but a car owner has to identify a driver to the police. On a level playing field, should it not be the police identifying the driver?
edited to add:
....but that's a whole different subject and maybe we shouldn't even open that debate, sorry for drifting off subject _________________ Andy
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That's right, but the slant was that we should be clamping down on easy availabliity of plates.
Quote:
Also in the case of a cloned vehicle, then you can provide evidence that it was not your car.
I think that you are looking at this too black and white.
Try this -
Your car has been "cloned", assuming the criminal involved has done his job adequately, he has the correct manufacturer, model and year, colour etc, and other than a close inspection of the VIN number, it all looks good.
The “cloned” car has just jumped a red light at 90mph and done a “hit and run” on a small child, the red light camera has taken a picture from behind, (so no driver image) this entire episode not 10 miles from the house of the owner of the original legal car that was “cloned”.
Meanwhile you are sick at home, around comes “plod” to arrest you, you claim your innocence, but he doesn’t believe you and drags you off, you have no family or friends nearby that you have spoken to in the past few day’s, as you’ve been in doors alone.
What happens next?
I'm not trying to get emotional but it is important to us all, this might be an invented scenario for the purpose of this thread, but not so far fetched that it couldn’t happen.
Nobody seems to be taking this serious enough. According to the news the "cloning" of vehicles is now at it's worst. I’m not sure how this can be "attacked", as criminals can make their own plates, but it could reduce “Jack the lad” going down to his local car shop and getting a set made, if the rules for having number plates made up were stricter.
This needs to be done now, before too many innocent vehicle owners get wrongly convicted.
edited to add:
....but that's a whole different subject and maybe we shouldn't even open that debate, sorry for drifting off subject _________________ TomTom Go 60
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Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:49 am Post subject:
GJF wrote:
The “cloned” car has just jumped a red light at 90mph and done a “hit and run” on a small child, the red light camera has taken a picture from behind, (so no driver image) this entire episode not 10 miles from the house of the owner of the original legal car that was “cloned”.
Meanwhile you are sick at home, around comes “plod” to arrest you, you claim your innocence, but he doesn’t believe you and drags you off, you have no family or friends nearby that you have spoken to in the past few day’s, as you’ve been in doors alone.
What happens next?
Easy.....You show 'Plod' your car, which isn't damaged and has no child inners splattered on it. Must've been a cloned car !
GPS_fan wrote:
Isn't this like a known burglar being forced to say who committed a crime if it wasn't them?
No. The difference is that the owner of a car 'WILL' or at least should know who was driving his car. A random burglar won't necessarily know who is committing all crime near him.
If a known burglar is caught near the scene, he is cautioned and given the right to silence, but if he fails to disclose anything when questioned (and that includes an alibi) which he later relies on in court, his defence is questonable.
Anyway....we are not just drifting off topic hear, we are now trying to paddle up Niagara Falls !! I just felt I should answer the posts. _________________ Tommo...
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