F20 Map Updates - NOT FREE

[mostdom]

[DRP]

Hi mostdom, Krasimir

My first build was a 386 DX 66, when ram was £1 a MB so 128 MB Ram cost £128. I have been using AMD & ATI in many a build. Thought I would just mention it.
Any how this is a GPS forum and not a PC one. (There are plenty of those out there?). Moving forward, embrace the technology & let’s not sit on the fence waiting for SP2 to come along. Only joking?
Regards
DRP
_________________
Sharing information is the key to a better understanding

Mio M400 WEU, N60I, T1, 2x B2, iCN 510 & lots more

[mostdom]

SORRY!

I knew someone would do that but if it kills this topic then it worked.

_________________
Dom

HERE LIES PND May it rest in peace.
Navigon 7310/iPhone Navigon&Copilot

[Krasimir]

Sorry for going off topic. With my first question about Vista I just wanted to show that I find the comparison with the "free" Vista upgrades to be not very appropriate because we get those "free" upgrades only if we have just bought a PC (arounf £1000 and we are discussing here devices which are 5 times cheaper).
Hope this does not reopen the argument about the map updates from Navman. :D

[DRP]

Hi Krasimir
If you look at my signature,
You will see that I have a laptop running Autoroute 2007 with GPS. Purchased this from PC world for £69. The Acer 5051 laptop cost £399 from Ebuyer, it is this PC I have the free Vista upgrade for.
Regards
DRP
_________________
Sharing information is the key to a better understanding

Mio M400 WEU, N60I, T1, 2x B2, iCN 510 & lots more

[TheM]

Returning back to the topic – sat nav manufacturers are not really interested in selling map upgrades as they make no money on them. TeleAtlas & co. charge whatever they like, and that’s a lot. All restrictions you have on use of your maps come from map suppliers – sat nav companies have no interest in implementing restrictions and try to avoid them whenever they can (similar to MP3 player manufacturers – DRM just makes their products more complicated, costlier to make and test, and infuriates consumers).
The reason why sat nav manufacturers bother to release map updates at all are contractual obligations – most countries have some provisions in their consumer rights laws that forces sat nav manufacturers to “support” their products (i.e. issue map updates) for certain number of years.
Why sat nav manufacturers make no money from map updates? Map data providers charge an arm and a leg for their data, and charge extra for each “advanced” usage scenario – e.g. sat nav manufacturer will pay the least if their maps don’t move (that’s why iCN 320 had no moving maps – map data was a lot cheaper), they pay more for moving maps and a lot more for “3D” display. What sat nav manufacturer gets for their money is data in map data provider’s format – that needs to be recompiled into device format. Recompilation is very complicated procedure involving numerous stages, can be spread over several servers and take days. Of course, as software evolves, every new release usually has a new map format so manufacturer has to maintain a very complex tool chain for every software release so that new map data (supplied in new map data provider’s format, which means that old tool chain needs to be tweaked first so that it can read it) can be built into old device format and released as an update. Just building the stuff is not the end of it – it has to be tested on every device for which it is being released, and sometimes new data breaks old software so map data needs to be tweaked, recompiled and retested. Once that is done, it then needs to be packaged and distributed – also neither cheap nor simple. And all that so that map data provider can get lion’s share of the money while sat nav manufacturer is lucky if it manages to earn a pound for its trouble, once costs are paid.
So, if you feel strongly about cost of map upgrades go and yell at TeleAtlas – they get all the money.

[mostdom]

I always find these forums interesting how there is always someone out there who knows.

TheM, you sound like some who maybe works for or is associated with one of these mapping companies in one way or another.

Very informative.
_________________
Dom

HERE LIES PND May it rest in peace.
Navigon 7310/iPhone Navigon&Copilot

[CaptainDrift]

From reading the thread so far some questions
RobertN- If you think the udates are so expensive approach Tele Atlas United Kingdom, 46 - 50 Coombe Road, New Malden, KT3 4QF ,Phone : + (44) 208 336 6600
Or Navteq directly and purchase the raw map data.

ZZfool- If the retailer mis sells a product then homw can you complain the the manufacturer.
If currys is sells me a sony tv i complain to currys not sony.

Raving Dave- This is true, New users buy mapdata + unit, Existing buy Map data.
Gambit Gambler- there is a difference between the retailer, supplier and manufacturer. all have different laws to follow.

Tim- as ever page 2 good point.

Something also to add.
When Sat nav was new people went out and paid up to £1500 for a unit then £100 for the updated map data. icn 620 bought with V1 then upgraded to V2,V3,V3.5 then discounted trade in up to V4 or V4.2

this was considered reasonable.
Now the cost of the hardware has come down and improved due to better technology, Cheaper manufactering costs, cheaper distribution costs the initial purchase price has dropped drastically.
Icn 620 brand new £1500
F20 Brand New £179
the map data will cost the same as all the time as that improves so would charge more but has come down in price as easier to collect. ergo stays the same price.

[robertn]

We know you work fro navman, and you are very good a selectively telling the true. You must be in Marketing.

The iCN V1-V2 upgrade was initially free. Did you forget that or intentionaly mislead the discussion by ommission.

You have very nicely reenforced my argument that the consumer is being mislead by the industry.

[MaFt]

[robertn]

read this post

[mostdom]

I would have missed that.

Remind me not to argue with robertn anymore, otherwise he'll notice that I am the MD of a large multinational GPS manufa... Oh .
_________________
Dom

HERE LIES PND May it rest in peace.
Navigon 7310/iPhone Navigon&Copilot

[MaFt]

[gambitgander]

Is this conversation still raging? I love the smell of heated mass debate in the morning...

right, where to start:

CaptainDrift, please clarify your point regarding suppliers, retailers, etc. It has nothing to do regarding my post. I sure hope you do not answer Navman customer emails, because that could get interesting.

On one little point too... Robertn, I've been a member of the SatNav community for a little while now and can remember the V1 to V2 upgrade for iCN630 users ONLY. I clearly remember it was a fault on Navman's side, because they had made a big balls-up with their iCN 630 software and it was apparently their way of saying sorry. Navman also gave a free upgrage from v1.90 (UK) to v1.91 (Europe). Bare in mind that this was about 3 - 4 years ago... good memory though

So, the standing is around navigation manufacturers misleading customers by having "hidden" costs associated with upgrading their maps.

Robertn raised the question about why customers were not made aware of the upgrade costs before they bought their systems? Correct assumption? A question from my side... when you bought your desktop PC or laptop, did your retailer or the manufacturer tell you that you would have to pay to update the O/S and did they tell you how much it would cost? I bought a Dell 6 months ago (direct of course) and they made NO mention of upgrade prices. But you may argue that "everyone" knows that you have to pay to update Windows and it's only a small cost. This leads quite nicely into my next discussion.

£14 for a Vista upgrade ain't bad... but do those programmers have to go driving across Europe to gather the core code? Probably not. Do they have hotel, food, petrol, airplane and other travelling expenses while programming code? Probably not. All they need is a PC with a network connection. Plus Microsoft produce a few million copies, so their economies of scales is pretty efficient. The same is true for MOST software companies. So, someone has to pick up the tab for all these expenses and in the end, it is Mr and Mrs Consumer. Of course, over time as more copies of the data are sold, the price will come down.

There was also a comment made regarding what is actually included within the map updates. The answer is PLENTY! I don't have the time to list everything, but here are the main items: New roads, changes to existing roads, changes in traffic flow, new features (e.g. lane information), new road attributes (eg: angle of road slope), corrections to existing data, etc.

If you're still not satisfied and don;t think I've clarified this enough, let's tackle the misleading of customers full-on. Robertn, you sound like an intelligent fellow, so I'm not going to patronise you by using single syllable words, but if there is anything you don;t get, please ask me to clarify.

On typical packaging you get on most/all consumer products, regardless of the maturity of that market, none of the products I looked at contained information on future costs of running the product. I went into Dixons, Currys and PC World and had a very good look. It is also safe to say that the Navigation sector is like no other sector within the consumer market. It's relatively new (as a mass consumer product) and as such is entitled to some of it's own unique "rules." Are you saying that you expect companies to put the prices of the map updates on the boxes?

If so, think on this. PC and SD memory prices change about as often as an exchange rate. Would you expect a PC manufacturer to put the cost of a memory upgrade on the outside of a new PC box???? That would just be absurd, but according to you, they are misleading the customer by not disclosing this information. And before you say it, NO, not everyone knows about PC's and NO, not all types of memory are relatively cheap.

Following on from that, companies are not going to know what the cost of the updated map data is a year from now... And consider that some devices maysit on a shelf for anything up to 8 months, if a price is quoted on the box, that open up another can of worms. Let's then ignore pricing for a bit... I have not come across a consumer package that informs customers that they will need to pay money in the future to update their systems. I got out my old laptop packaging... no, nothing there either.

In closing, in such a competitive environment, retailers can pick and choose which GPS brands they sell... if any. If GPS companies, or any company in particular, was generating LOADS of angry customers or customer returns, as you claim there are, a good retailer would axe them from their shelves and cease to deal with said manufacturer.

By the sound of things, satnav manufacturers are not doing anything different to any other manufacturer? They are stating what is in the box... and leave it to the customer to engage themselves and do some research.

[robertn]

All your points are well argued and valid. We will have to agree to disagree on who holds ultimate responsibilty for the disappointed users.

My main concern is the number of complaints from people, particularly those that are new to Sat Nav technlogies. We have been playing this game since it started and expected the rules would be made up as it went along . We have seen these rules evolve over time, and we no longer have the ability to understand these devices the same way as a first time buyer does.

All I am saying is the number of complaints is significant and therefore must be happening for a reason, maybe all these consumers are just dumb-asses, as experts it is so very easy to believe so. Yes-the consumers are not doing the research, and getting disppointed as a result. As you have stated - the industry will eventually (if not already) establish a set of ground rules. The consumers will learn those rules (obviously not happened yet) and it will all settle down.

Until then, unlike your comparisions to other mature markets that have been around for years, what does a consumer have to tell him what questions to ask and what research he needs to do? I beleive the consumers are being mislead, even if by omission.

One point I will happily concede is maybe this is not the fault of the manufacturers and retailers. Maybe it is the fault of the web sites (such as this one), and reviewers and article writers, who happily discuss the virtues of the device without educating the consumers on these issues -when did you last read a review that mentioned or discussed upgrade pricing.

Thank you for posting such a well reasoned and rational counter to my intial discussion points.

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