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Joined: Sep 04, 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Chamonix Mont-Blanc, France
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:49 am Post subject:
I agree. While i understand that a lot of people are not prepared to put hands in pockets and shell out for original software, this is exactly what will happen in the long term.
What really annoys me is that people who use cracked software feel they have the right to slate a product that they have not even purchased! The software producers spend millions on development, including staff costs, offices, marketing etc. All those support staff - whether they are any good or not - all have to be paid as, i assume, do most people reading this!
As a musician, i know how much the Music industry suffers from peer to peer downloaders and we will soon see legitimate track downloads costing very litle, in order to claw in some revenue for the millions they pay out in marketing and production costs, as physical media will become unsustainably costly.
If we want to continue to benefit from our little toys, our music etc, we should all be prepared to put our hands in our pockets. The more people that do, the cheaper stuff gets and we would probably get 2 or 3 updates a year!
Joined: Nov 14, 2003 Posts: 2143 Location: Surrounded by A1, M1 & M25
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:50 am Post subject:
I do not think that pirate versions will be the end of TomTom PDA. I for one am quite happy to try a pirate version and feel I have done nothing morally wrong in doing so. Why have I tried a pirate version? I have done so because it is available and I cannot buy the licenced. I will buy the full version as soon as it is available having seen V6 will do most of what I want. The downside for TomTom would have been if it had been a load of rubbish then I might not have bought the upgrade and they could have lost out.
Will others just continue to use the pirate versions and not buy the licenced version, well some will, but they will lose the additional services such as TomTom Traffic and the integration of that into the navigation is very important to many such as myself. TomTom traffic's annual fee is nearly the same as previous version upgrades.
Having taken a look at V6 I have reverted to my licenced V5.21 as I require the subscribed traffic service.
If TomTom offer a service and not just a piece of code, piracy should not be a major problem to them. TomTom's major costs are licencing fees for the maps and they do not pay those on pirate versions. Piracy may be harming the map producers more.
I do not think that pirate versions will be the end of TomTom PDA. I for one am quite happy to try a pirate version and feel I have done nothing morally wrong in doing so. Why have I tried a pirate version? I have done so because it is available and I cannot buy the licenced.
Have to agree but for a different fundamental reason. I refuse to buy software that can't be trialed first - you don't buy a car without test driving it do you?
I'm not going to give over hard earned cash based on "reviews" and comments in a forum. It's an ethos I apply at work with software. If a company is not confident enough in the quality of their software to let it be trialed then warning bells ring. Time limiting a full instalation is no longer rocket science! Even the cheapest shareware offers this.... With or without this ability TomTom gets cracked doesn't it?
And in the case of TomTom I wonder how many people would have bought it if they had trialed it first. It took a lot of thought from me (trying a hooky copy) and it only just won out on other offerings!
Have to admit that i have tried a"borrowed" copy on my loox n500 because i had great trouble getting my legal 5.21 version working correctly on it & i had no intention of paying £130 plus on something that wouldnt work on my pda.
I shall test it in morning,if all is ok i will advance order it straight away,if not then i havnt wasted my money.
Either way 5.21 will go straight back on either till i get my legal copy or untill something better comes out(Igo with voice poi warn maybe)
If Tomtom would release a demo i wouldnt need to resort to this method.
Joined: Nov 23, 2004 Posts: 454 Location: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject:
MrT wrote:
Why have I tried a pirate version? I have done so because it is available and I cannot buy the licenced. I will buy the full version as soon as it is available having seen V6 will do most of what I want.
It's a weird logic.
If you walk past a shop at night outside opening hours, you see something you want, you throw in the shop window because you wanted to have it but could not buy it? And then blame the shop owner for not being opened at night? Of course in the morning you then bring him the money for what you took. _________________ GO1005
MGC GT 1968
MGB Cabrio 1973
Why have I tried a pirate version? I have done so because it is available and I cannot buy the licenced. I will buy the full version as soon as it is available having seen V6 will do most of what I want.
It's a weird logic.
If you walk past a shop at night outside opening hours, you see something you want, you throw in the shop window because you wanted to have it but could not buy it? And then blame the shop owner for not being opened at night? Of course in the morning you then bring him the money for what you took.
Actually I have some sympathy here with those who cliam they are test driving the cracked version and buy an original. Taking the analagy here:-At least when you go back the following moring you can pick up the object you want and "fell the width" (UK expression) prior to passing over the 16 digits from your credit card. TomTom do NOT have a sale or return policy! You cannot smash in the window, nor pick it up and see how it feels even when the shop is open! _________________ iPhone5, TomTom, Google maps, Navfree, Viewranger and Apple Maps (ekk)
Joined: Nov 23, 2004 Posts: 454 Location: Haarlem, The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject:
then again, I do agree that TT software should have some trial period. Or money back guarantee, but that is always difficult with software. Should not be that difficult to limit to time (e.g. against UTC GPS time). During trial period you then get annoying messages popping up, e.g. at startup or when calculating route, until you register/unlock the product
These pirated versions are often unfinished copies, so if you try those, it is very likely that they are unstable. If you base your decision on these cracks, it is very likely that you will not buy the real product. Which is not fair to the developer, in this case Tomtom. _________________ GO1005
MGC GT 1968
MGB Cabrio 1973
It's a weird logic.
If you walk past a shop at night outside opening hours, you see something you want, you throw in the shop window because you wanted to have it but could not buy it? And then blame the shop owner for not being opened at night? Of course in the morning you then bring him the money for what you took[quote/]
Its not quite the same thing is it,Tom tom give absolutely no opportunity to try the software at all,All we have are screenshots.
It would in my opinion be in there interests to supply a time limited Demo so those unfortunates who have have pda,s that they will never get around to checking for compatibility have a chance to try before possibly wasting quite a large amount of cash.
Even the suppliers of small pda programes have a demo that can be downloaded.Why not Tomtom.
Joined: Nov 14, 2003 Posts: 2143 Location: Surrounded by A1, M1 & M25
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:03 am Post subject:
TuurG wrote:
It's a weird logic.
If you walk past a shop at night outside opening hours, you see something you want, you throw in the shop window because you wanted to have it but could not buy it? And then blame the shop owner for not being opened at night? Of course in the morning you then bring him the money for what you took.
What a ridiculous assertion. What you are saying in software equivalent terms is hacking into the TomTom servers and crashing them to get hold of a copy.
This is more like finding the goods lying in the street then going to the shop to buy your own instead of keeping the goods which are not yours. There are copies lying all over usenet, peer to peer networks and websites.
Don't tell me you work for a dodgy Dutch software navigation company?
Joined: 14/09/2002 20:56:18 Posts: 5231 Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject:
MrT wrote:
This is more like finding the goods lying in the street then going to the shop to buy your own instead of keeping the goods which are not yours. There are copies lying all over usenet, peer to peer networks and websites.
In your analogy, what you suggest is known as 'Stealing by finding'. If you are actually searching Usenet etc. for cracked software, this could arguably be construed as 'Going equipped to steal'.
Whether or not you then go and buy a legitimate copy is immaterial. _________________ Tim
Joined: Nov 14, 2003 Posts: 2143 Location: Surrounded by A1, M1 & M25
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject:
Must be more like handling stolen goods being given an SD card of TT6 Western Europe.
At least the blank card is worth having.
What is some peoples holier than thou problem here? Is it someone having a new toy before them which means they cannot sleep at night?
It is a bit like the drivers who get annoyed because you break the law by overtaking them at speeds above the limit, the plastic police as they are known.
Joined: 14/09/2002 20:56:18 Posts: 5231 Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject:
MrT wrote:
Must be more like handling stolen goods being given an SD card of TT6 Western Europe.
At least the blank card is worth having.
But you mentioned P2P, Usenet, etc.. I can't recall handing out SD cads as being their modus operandi.
MrT wrote:
What is some peoples holier than thou problem here? Is it someone having a new toy before them which means they cannot sleep at night?
Ummm, theft?
MrT wrote:
It is a bit like the drivers who get annoyed because you break the law by overtaking them at speeds above the limit, the plastic police as they are known.
No, it is nothing of the sort. I hope it never happens to you but if you ever have something stolen I'm sure you'll just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well". _________________ Tim
Last edited by Tim Buxton on Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject:
MrT wrote:
What is some peoples holier than thou problem here?
I think the major problem is that the TTN6 software has been announced, but not released (as yet).
Software piracy affects all of us, it is reflected in the purchase cost, if every one were to use the illegally obtained software would the software providers stay in business? then to go one stage further - what about the mapping companies? - It costs a great deal of money to provide what we all take for granted.
The majority of users to this site use legally obtained hardware/ software - this costs each and every one of us hard earned cash - which is probably a part explaination to the "holier than thou" attitude you refer to, I certainly won't loose any sleep over using version 5,21 - Mike
Joined: Nov 14, 2003 Posts: 2143 Location: Surrounded by A1, M1 & M25
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject:
Tim Buxton wrote:
No, it is nothing of the sort. I hope it never happens to you but if you ever have something stolen I'm sure you'll just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well".
Quite right and theft is permanently depriving someone of something which belongs to them and this is wrong and this includes revenue from software.
However neither TomTom or anybody else has lost anything by me trying out their software. They have lost no revenue and there is no lost opportunity of revenue and there is nothing that anyone should be getting upset about.
If I continued to use it instead of buying it then that would be wrong.
I think that this is something that people are just not going to agree on.
No, it is nothing of the sort. I hope it never happens to you but if you ever have something stolen I'm sure you'll just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well".
Quite right and theft is permanently depriving someone of something which belongs to them and this is wrong and this includes revenue from software.
However neither TomTom or anybody else has lost anything by me trying out their software. They have lost no revenue and there is no lost opportunity of revenue and there is nothing that anyone should be getting upset about.
If I continued to use it instead of buying it then that would be wrong.
I think that this is something that people are just not going to agree on.
You're absolutely correct about people never going to agree about that. There are just too many "shades of grey" that go with digital media, or any other easy to manipulate items. Hardly anyone is completely innocent. There are people who will decry getting a copy of a program from a friend as theft, yet have no problems at all with borrowing a CD.
In the strictest sense, fast-forwarding through the commercials on your Tivo is a theft of service. I remember recently reading in the news that broadcasters were petitioning lawmakers to make some kind of safeguard to prevent people from skipping the ads. It is their copywrited material, and if you are using it in a way unintended by them then you are doing no different than breaking any other EULA that you agree to.
I used to work in a company that made electronic systems for use in aircraft. We had a line of products that varied greatly in price from the low-end line to the high-end line. It was chaper for us to have all of our printed circuit boards fully populated, no matter which "box" it would go into, than to have different versions made. The only difference between the $5,000 box and the $50,000 box was which jumper wires were installed on the board. When it came down to it, it wasn't the components mounted on the board that mattered to the final price; it was the enginnering that went into it.
I have bought other electronic devices that were similar. The best example was when I picked up a scanner one time; there was a $300 version and a looks-the-same-but-has-better-features version for $500. I picked up the cheaper one, and later found out that if I opened up the case and cut just one wire, it turned into the $500 one. Of course, the wire got cut. I guess that tecnically it was stealing, but I never lost any sleep over it.
Another great example was when I lived in an apartment complex in Tucson, AZ. By dumb luck, I happened to move into a unit that had a balcony directly in line with a drive-in movie theater screen next door. I had a perfect view of the screen, and the audio was transmitted over FM. I lived there for three years, and I saw every movie relased during that period. Whenever I felt like a movie, I would just go sit outside in the great Arizona evening weather and drink a few beers and watch the show. That was stealing, no doubt about it, but I didn't feel guilty doing it.
Like I said, too many shades of grey. For many people, there is a world of difference between downloading a song and stuffing a CD down your pants at Wal-Mart, even though they are remarkably similar.
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