Best Speed Camera warning add on

[trafcam]

Someone earlier said:



"OK, that was not the last point! Does anybody really believe that Trafcams database was constructed purely through their own research? I'll bet any money you like that they've compared it with just about every public domain piece of info out there, including the Pocket GPS stuff. Perhaps they are the ones who should be taken to task, if we believe that public domain data should not be "hijacked" for commercial purposes, ever?"



All of our camera database has been constructed from data gathered either by our own members of staff, or by our own subscribers submitting camera locations for inclusion in the database. We have not incorporated any public-domain or commercial data into our databases, nor will we do so. All of our camera locations (with the exception of the first 1000 or so which were gathered on handheld GPS receivers which didn't have the ability) have a subscriber number and date / time stored against them which will prove 100% where they originate.



We do monitor a number of web sites for information on new camera locations. This includes the various police and official sources which disclose this information, and other clubs and organisations which provide text descriptions of camera locations. This information is passed to our spotters to visit the locations and mark the specific camera locations. If we found a source of lat / long positions of cameras on the web somewhere, it would go against our sense of fair play to just steal it.



I actually provide contributions to some web sites who have text listings of camera locations. Obviously I can't provide lat/long locations......



I can categorically state that we have not ever, and will not ever, download the PocketGPS camera database for inclusion in our own. I can understand the effort that the PocketGPS staff have gone to in assembling this data.



I would appreciate an apology from anyone who has effectively accused us of stealing our database earlier in this thread. It hasn't happened, and I resent the accusation.

[Mark R Penn]

My appologies Trafcam. The statement was made before I realised that the Pocket GPS database was copyright, and that a statement had been added saying that it could only be published from here.



My point (badly made perhaps) was that I think it would be right and proper for anyone selling this kind of data (as you do) to check it against all available public domain listings, to ensure accuracy. That does not mean you should simply copy the data over unchecked, but I recon it is reasonable for you to use it (public domain, which I now understand does not include the PGPS data) as a starting point, as you describe.



If you read what I wrote, and you quoted, you'll see that what I said (with emphasys added in the apropriate places) was; "Does anybody really believe that Trafcams database was constructed purely through their own research? I'll bet any money you like that they've compared it with just about every public domain piece of info out there, including the Pocket GPS stuff. Perhaps they are the ones who should be taken to task, if we believe that public domain data should not be "hijacked" for commercial purposes, ever?".



I personally do not believe it is wrong for commercial operations to use public domain info for their own purposes. In fact I would be extremely upset if I was subscribing to your service, and found that you did not check it for accuracy/completeness against every possible legal source.



What I got wrong was in assuming that the Pocket GPS data was public domain.



I did not accuse you of stealing anything (I used the words "compared it"), but do appologise if that was the impression created.



Mark
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[trafcam]

Thanks for the clarification, Mark.

[fysmd]

I think an important point is being missed here:



POIHandler allows ANYBODY to create POI files, upload the data to their server and then anybody can download, add to, and/or sync with it.

I repeatedly see you state that POIHandler are passing the data as theirs, I don't see anywhere on their site a claim of ownership.

There is also a lot of mention of POIWarner. I don't know if POIWarner and POIHander are related in any commercial way but remember that other software also supports synchronisation with POIHander. I use POIEdit and LOVE it.



I think it's also worth noting that _some_ of the POI files which are on POIHandler are maintained properly. I accidently uploaded incorrect data to a file - it's editor contacted me and the bad data was removed.



I've seen it mentioned in this thread and I've also suggested elsewhere: Why don't PocketGPS make their database available for sync with POIWarner and POIEdit from their own site?.

[TheBoyGroucho]

Quote: Originally posted by fysmd on 15 May 2003

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I've seen it mentioned in this thread and I've also suggested elsewhere: Why don't PocketGPS make their database available for sync with POIWarner and POIEdit from their own site?.

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The trouble with automatic uploading/syncing of gatso camera locations is that there is no manual peer review of the data. While a larger database may on the face of it appear superior, its not if a good proportion of the sites have no camera or are instead the blue trafficmaster "cameras".

[fysmd]

I think you misunderstand me:



POI-Warner and POIEdit (both independant to POIHandler.com) both have the ability to sync with more than one site.



What I'm suggesting (hoping for actually!) is that the pocketGPS camera DB (and other POIS ideally) be made available from the pocketgps site but in a way which allows us to automagicly sync updates to our PPCs.

I'm not suggesting that updates or changes to the PocketGPS data be changed in any way.



This way we get the latest POIs on out PPCs magicly while maintaining the quality of the data.



Ian.



PS. Just had a mail from poihander - they are about to charge for access to speedcams.......

[Privateer]

I've just had the email from POI Handler as well.



If they're going to charge €12 a year subscription for use of the Speedcams and other POI groups, will they be offering payments for new locations?



I've recently had a couple of POIs "published" on the PocketGPS TomTom POI Database page (thanks Dave) which I'm happy to be in the public domain because I've taken some other POIs from that page.



I've also passed on the details of new Speed Cameras to the PocketGPS team as I use their SpeedCamera POI as well.



Long may we share (for free) POIs!
_________________
Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D

[fysmd]

So I guess that POIHandler should pay you for the points you added - and me for that matter...



If they didn't distinguish content and just charged for the sync service as a whole I could accept a small charge. As it is, they are implying VALUE against data which is (arguably as seen in this thread) public domain as many people have added to it. Not to mention the PocketGPS data issues....



Please, PocketGPS become compatable with POIEdit (as I use it) and POI-Warner, I volenteer to help and I doubt doing this would noticably increase the load on your server(s) or bandwidth...

[TheBoyGroucho]

Quote: Originally posted by Privateer on 06 June 2003

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I've just had the email from POI Handler as well.



If they're going to charge €12 a year subscription for use of the Speedcams

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Nice one POI Handler...steal the data then charge other folk for it.

Thats the sort of shoddy business practice that gets a company boycotted.

[nicknick]

I can feel a serious rant coming from Dave (or even a lawsuit).



I expect he is counting to ten, very very slowly.



They are probably breaking a number of copyright laws, but in any case I never really found it that useful a site for the UK, so no loss (and no €12) - we have a much better range of databases here.



Nick

[Dave]

I think counting taking a deep breath and counting to 10 helps, before you try to find out who's just stolen your keyboard!

[Dave]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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I'm afraid I don't follow the argument that this is anything like hacking into Trafcams data. Their data is comercial, yours is not (yet), and yours is public domain, if only because of the format in which you publish it.

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Mark, I'm sorry by I totally disagree with you here, it has nothing to do with commercial data, it's to do with copyright. If you read the terms and conditions of Pocket GPS everything including the Speed Camera database and any work we do ourselves is copyright protected.

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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I can see and greatly apreciate the work that you have put into the database, but what many POI users have been crying out for is an easy and "no brain" way to share the data, and that (maybe with some limitations) is what POI Warner/POI Handler have come up with. It seams a bit rediculous to me to maintain two separate non commercial databases on two separate sites, and to get a little precious (not intended to be insulting - it was the only way I could think to express it) about who holds what data.

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If you feel you would rather have POI-Handler update the data you use, fine, please use them, the whole argument here is that the data has been taken and used in a commercial sense breaking our Copyright and terms and conditions.

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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I do accept that maybe you should have been consulted and asked if you had any objection to your data ending up in their database

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We should, we werent!

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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And yes, POI Warner is a commercial product, but then so is the desktop I need to be able to access the info on your site in the first place. At the moment, and I accept it could change, POI Warner is simply a tool to help access the data in a more efficient way.

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I think you're getting completely off point here, if that's how you feel, go and get a non-commercial free operating system.

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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And finally, I think I remember that in the early days you actively encouraged POI Handler to establish itself, and I think even told them to use your data (before it was as extensive as it is now)!

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Mark, we have never told anyone to use our data, we have always explored ways of developing the data and creating an easy approach to updating the data, but at the end of the day it requires human interactiveness if you want to have accurate data. We have always encouraged new projects in the GPS arena, but at the end of the day, taking our database and using it as their own data is just the same as pirating the entire Pocket GPS website that falls under the same copyright and terms and conditions and serving this up under another name elsewhere.



It kind of makes you feel what's the point in doing all of this, and why should we (or from my perspective), we put all the time and effort into Pocket GPS and break our backs over bringing people a service to find that people has complete disregard for what we do. I can understand why TravRoute, TomTom, Navman, TrafCam, GPSAssist and POI-Warner want to protect their own programs with licensing.



Again, I'm not getting at you here, and I'm sure the data was on POI-Handler to start with, it just makes me feel why I should spend over 12 hours a day bringing this resource when you just get slapped in the face at the end of it.



[cont]

[Mark R Penn]

They'd have to make some dramatic changes to their technology to do that, as the file that's synced/downloaded from POI Handler is just an OV2 file. As soon as it hits anyones PPC or desktop, then there is nothing to stop it being handed arround the internet. Plus there will be no way for them to confiscate all the OV2 files that people have already got from them. So, on the day they start charging (assuming it's too much, and assuming there is no-one who will e-mail me the OV2 file each time they sync, for a share of the subscription fee), I'll just stop syncing, and carry on using my (now largely complete and automatically evolved) OV2 file, going back to manually adding cameras as I find them.



That's why Trafcam can't integrate completely with TTN - they have to use a proprietary file format for their data to stop people sharing it, and as soon as they use a proprietary format, there is no way to show it on the TTN map.



And anyway, the POI Handler database DOES include the Pocket GPS one. See this thread.
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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Oldie]

I have had a look at the POIhandler FAQ and it states that duplicate entries are removed when you sync. A duplicate is defined as an exact match of coordinates which, in my opinion, is too precise. You are likely to have numerous duplicate entries within a small radius and if you delete them in your own overlays then they will reappear next time that you sync. Could be a nightmare PocketGPS is taking much more care over adding to and deleting from their database.

[Mark R Penn]

But POI Warner handles that. If you add a POI while driving, and later copy it to the OV2 you are about to sync, it will automatically remove duplicates within a set radius.



Is there some sort of competition going on here that I'm not aware of? There seams to be a lot of negative reaction to the POI sync, all based around "Pocket GPS do it better", when what we actually have is a free service (for registered owners of POI Warner) attempting to make it easy to maintain and share up to date POI files with minimal effort from users. Surely that can only be a good thing, even if it's not absolutely perfect from day one.



I'de be interested to hear if Dave feels as threatened as some users appear to be?
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