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I'm working from the AA Truckers' Atlas
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robinwalton
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject: I'm working from the AA Truckers' Atlas Reply with quote

I've input over 1000 so far, I havn't finished Inner London (don't go there), and I'm on the way north doing Newcastle upon Tyne at the moment.

I know there will be a few errors as it's not always obvious exactly which road the line points to, or the TomTom map doesn't show the railway line.

As you can see I've named them with the page number and grid reference (approx) plus the height so it's easy to pick out the low ones.

Here are the lowest ones so far in height order:-

The rest of this post has been removed at the request of the AA Legal Department due to copyright infringements.
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alix776
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robin dont forget there is poi database available already and can be had from pocketgps via poi edit it might make things allittle easier as newcastle and the northeast is fairly light on lowbridges though the one on a68 can be a pain if you forget about it and have 15 foot trailer on
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robinwalton
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject: See the topic 1000 low bridges Reply with quote

Go to topic 1000 low bridges
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MikeB
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm working from the AA Truckers' Atlas Reply with quote

robinwalton wrote:
I've input over 1000 so far, I havn't finished Inner London (don't go there), and I'm on the way north doing Newcastle upon Tyne at the moment.

I know there will be a few errors as it's not always obvious exactly which road the line points to, or the TomTom map doesn't show the railway line.

As you can see I've named them with the page number and grid reference (approx) plus the height so it's easy to pick out the low ones.

Here are the lowest ones so far in height order:-

The rest of this post has been removed at the request of the AA Legal Department due to copyright infringements.

Due to threatened legal action by the AA Legal Department we have had to edit this thread.

The AA claim that the Bridge Height data is copyright material in the form of literary work under the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988.
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Ollie
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be very difficult for the AA to enforce copyright of bridge heights since anyone could physicaly go to these bridges and compile a list.

The list would belong to the person that carried out the research, and would be exactly the same as the AA list.

The SOURCE of the information may breach copyright, but not the CONTENT of the list.

Hope that makes sense.

Ollie.
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neil01
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the data is in the public domain - and I would have thought impossible to copyright (except, perhaps ironically, errors which would then be works of fiction) - the threads suggest that there were links/references to pages/locations in a copyrighted publication - perhaps it is those references which are causing the problem rather than the data itself.

They could also (probably quite rightly) claim that by referring to the AA you are using their good name for your benefit without their permission. (NB benefit doesn't have to be monetary)

Please note that although I have studied law at a basic level, while the contents of the post may or may not reflect the true position - it is just rather 'tongue in cheek' and should be treated as such!
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MikeB
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The case was that the Bridge Height data published in the AA truckers guide is copyright information owned by the AA. This was published along with the co-ordinates of the bridges.

The co-ordinates were not part of the case, just the bridge heights. The post stated quite clearly that they were being obtained from the AA Truckers Guide.
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phily
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeB

An interesting point, as you know I have been working on files for low bridges both in metric and imperial which I have sent to you and have been getting my information from highway departments in various counties and then getting exact lat/long details from one of the mapping companies. I have sometimes checked position with the AA truckers map, but as you know the directions in the map are only approx and ofcourse only give details in feet.

I cannot see how such rough positions in the map can be compared to the more detailed list that had been posted and presume it was the mistake of mentioning the AA Truckers map that has caused the problem, a pity as the advertising must have made some people think about buying this map. I for one did not know of the existance of this publication until I saw it mentioned on this site many months ago.

This site does so much to inform people of whats on offer and how to get the most of ones toys should we really be intimated by narrow minded companies.
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MikeB
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phily wrote:
This site does so much to inform people of whats on offer and how to get the most of ones toys should we really be intimated by narrow minded companies.

The answer to that has to be yes and for two reasons.

This is not intimidation it is protection of copyright. If you had created a piece of work that had taken some time and a lot of effort to complete you would expect to be able to claim that work as your own, and also recieve a proportion of any income from it. So in fairness just because it is a big company (or in the case of postcode co-ordinates which we also have problems with) the copyright still applies.

Secondly these companies have legal departments protecting the corporate intellectual property. If they were to press a case against us we would not even have the funds to defend ourselves, whereas they would have a bottomless pit from which to fight the case.
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phily
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike

Does that mean that the lists that I have been sending in for low bridges to the poi section will never be published?
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MikeB
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phily wrote:
Mike

Does that mean that the lists that I have been sending in for low bridges to the poi section will never be published?

If they do not refer to the AA copyright information then they will be published.

We are a bit behind with our POI maintenance at the moment, with so many things to do and general admin taking a lot of our time it is difficult to get round towriting reviews and getting the site admin sorted.
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phily
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

I have been thinking about this over night and cannot see how the AA have a case. I am not a lawyer, but as the information about bridge heights is compiled by the highways departments of various councils and the Dept of Transport, and most councils will freely give the information on request. how can the AA have intellectual rights on this.
I can see that giving the page numbers of bridges might cause a problem although you would have to have a copy of the Truckers Guide to take advantage of this information.
There are so many accidents every year with trucks and low bridges and we don't always check our map on every journey. Robin has done a great job extracting information that he is prepared to share with other road users. and should be supported.

With the growing amount of GPS users, both cars and trucks then we should fight to have this information publicly available.

"If you had created a piece of work that had taken some time and a lot of effort to complete you would expect to be able to claim that work as your own,"

I would also have thought that the work Robin and others have done in checking each and every bridge location and quoting their co-ordinates and bridge heights and in some cases road numbers and names would be covered by your above statement......What do others think?
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neil01
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, Mike B's comment re legal departments is all too true. I give an example:
Freddie Laker (remember him?) had problems with British Airways, but couldn't afford to sue to success - even though he had a very good case; his airline folded.
If I understand correctly, similar (the same?) tactics were used against Richard Branson, to put him out of business - but Richard Branson had a very good trick up his sleeve - He converted a massive portion of his assets (the music side I think) into cash; let British Airways know that he could afford to go to the highest court, through as many appeals as it took - and guess what they threw in the towel and paid up!
Unfortunately, in British Civil Law, the looser picks up the tab - and if you fail to defend an appeal (even if because you are broke and can't afford to continue) you are deemed to have lost - even if you have the strongest case in the world.
So somtimes Justice is more like a game of Poker!
I can't for one minute criticise this site for cutting the content, big legal departments can be quite intimidating.
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broc
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corporate legal departments tend to see everything as 'black' or 'white', and small organisations and individuals can seldom win against them. However, as consumers we can exercise our 'legal' right to not to purchase products or services from them if we do not agree with their actions.
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phily wrote:
how can the AA have intellectual rights on this.


Probably because they took a lot of time to compile and check the information. However, if we can find a source for the information which is clearly in the public domain then this overcomes the copyright problems.

There is also a provision in the Copyright Act for "Fair Use". A good explanation of it is here: http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/copypol2.htm#test

On the face of it, the low bridges database doesn't infringe copyright because:

It is published on a non-profit basis for personal use
The location of the bridges is in a published work which has a basis in fact
The database represents a small amount of the complete work

There is no saying that these arguments would stand up in court and a lawsuit would be difficult and expensive to defend. I am disappointed that the database has been withdrawn but I fully understand the unwillingness of the team to get involved in a lawsuit.

Would I bet the business on this? NO!
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