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Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 10642 Location: Suffolk, UK
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:27 am Post subject:
I can understand the situation if Digitools system was using the OS maps as such but it doesn't. It uses data that is freely available. If I say to someone that I live 5 miles due North of a friend or .01500 degrees would I then be infringing their property rights?
What about all the POI's that are downloaded from this site, and many others, are they to be shut down. All that Digitools has done is to make a small program that draws the data together to make it user friendly. (Something the OS don't like apparently).
Presumably the same thing could be done with TTG with a Linux hookup!! It being the onlt TomTom product that can't benefit at the moment. _________________ Richard
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Joined: Jun 16, 2004 Posts: 454 Location: London, Ingerlund
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:05 am Post subject:
I too find it strange that they are contesting the geographical side of the data. Surely they cannot claim that they own latitudes/longitudes? That is an international standard, not owned by the OS.
How does it therefore affect POI's, speedcamera databases, the geocaching.com website and so on. Even planes have GPS systems on board that get them to the runway... and let's not get started on the military!
I could understand the postoffice claiming that the PAF data is theirs, as it is, but not the OS, unless they are mis-understanding. I've got a commerically bought postcode database that contains postcodes, lats/longs and also X/Y grid co-ordinates. The X/Y may be OS owned, but not the lat/long - I think they have got confused...
Interesting that it is £2.50 a pop for the postcode database overlay. If that is the deal they (the OS) come up with maybe Neils will continue, though the thought of having to secure the data to only allow downloads to those who pay may put him off.
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 2145 Location: Midlands, UK
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject:
I think it would be VERY interesting to have a look at ALL of the Staff and members at OS, just to see if they are using the postcode search on their PDA's ! and just how much FREE information they take from this web site/forum and others to gain information that they use in there products.
If they are saying that the postcode search uses there data to locate the area (and this data is identical to there's, ok that's the copyright), change the data, but only by a small margin, it will still work and the data will not be theirs any longer, it will have been compiled by someone else.
Did not the Post Office keep telling us all to use postcodes in all our communications.
PO have the copyright to the postcodes yet they tell us to use them when addressing snail mail, in essence making them public domain.
OS can't possibly have any copyright for postcodes or map references (other than their own form of grid referencing and maps) otherwise every country/company in the world, that uses them, would be paying license fees... including the military.
If it was my software I would be asking OS to clarify exactly what copyright I was breaching.
a tenner says they have a weak/none existant case _________________ SW
In my opinion, whilst the post office are responsible for the implementation and upkeep of postcodes, they could hardly complain about the widespread use of them as they actually make letter sorting easier for THEM - I didn't see a reduction in the postal charges because of this though, did you?
Secondly, the only claim I can imagine that OS have to the the Long/Lat co-ordinates of postcodes is if THEY actually compiled the data. This means that it belongs to them. Given the 'open' environment that the internet (and particularly this site) provides, it is quite possible that we all compiled this file between us. Streetmap.co.uk provides these co-ordinates for any postcode you key into their converter. The OS could not realistically PROVE that the data we all use was theirs - we may have compiled it ourselves!
But would we of ended up with the same error's that they most likely have? _________________ iPAQ 2110
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Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 10642 Location: Suffolk, UK
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject:
I've been trawling through the Post Office and OS sites, and neither gives much help, but it seems to be that the Post Office compiled their data to give Post Codes against full address. This is available to varying accuracies. This data, the PAF and associated files, is mostly used by businesses needing to auto fill forms.
The OS meanwhile have taken those addresses/Postcodes and given them various references (lat/long, WS, Pathfinder, etc) and presumably are claimimg that because they have done the work in matching one against the other it is theirs.
Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 17 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:19 am Post subject:
Being totally cynical of course what's next?
Will OS bring out their own chargeable version of postcode software?
Will the local authorities, or whoever stakes a claim, want street names and premise numbers not to be used in navigational software because they own the rights of the names and numbers?
Or am i just being paranoid?
Hello all its Steve from poisoft here. I have been looking into this a great deal since this came about.
OS have created a list of postcodes next to Grid references eg x,y and various other data which includes long lat. Which obviously they hold copyright too. However I have reviewed a sample of there data and it in no way resembles the data which we, and no doubt digitools use.
Our data simply consists of a postcode, with a long lat figure. Obviously OS dont hold any copyright over publishing of long lat figures as this is a international standard.
It is my suspision that OS have assumed that our data is a direct copy of there list that they produced, which it is not by any means. I plan on phoning OS first thing on Monday and speaking directly with there legal team and showing them exactly what our data consists of and asking them to show me exactly what part of our data is breaking any copyright. If they can legitimatly show me a copyright that directly shows we are breaking copyright then we shall take it off.
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 2145 Location: Midlands, UK
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject:
Hello Steve,
I would NOT show them your data, I would ask them what data they say is infringing their copyright and WHY, then they have to prove to you that you are using there data.
ASK THEM to show you your data and their data (lets see an example so you can understand the problem and why this infringes the copyright), not the other way round, they must already HAVE your data, otherwise how do they know that, and can say what they are saying.
I would ask them most politely, could they explain to you exactly why your data infringes the copyright and could they send you by email an example so that you can understand it.
Are they saying that connecting lon/lat to postcodes is there copyright! because that cannot be copyrighted.
It looks like over the next few weeks we "may" become a licensed reseller for OS.
This means that our database will be 100% upto date and also any buyers wil have access to upgrades etc.
We are currently awaiting confirmation fro mour licensed reseller, who is also going to be involved in making similar products.
We will be developing a program similar to digitools to do the search, however the program will cost, only a few pounds more than what we are already selling for but to cover licensing fees etc.
I do stress that having discussions with our possible licensee over the next few weeks it will be very hard to find legal, if any, copies of postcode searchs.
Anyone who has already bought our software will be entitled to upgrade at a reduced cost.
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