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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: LOST PRODUCT CODE
Hi there,
When i had my TT go 300 before i upgraded to the 510 - i bought an offical TOM TOM SD card with the Major Routes of Europe on it. As i no longer need this now, i want to sell it, however i have lost the plastic credit card size card with the product code on it.
The card works perfect and i have never had to enter this code and i also added the PARIS maps which i bought from TOM TOM direct and dont recall having to add it??
I have never registered this card with TOM TOM as i had already done that with the SD CARD which came with my 300 -- so im unable to ask TOMTOM as they say they need that before they will help.
Is there away of extracting the code from the SD Card??
I can sell it without but i guess it will be worth less??
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:
AFAIK your buyer will need the product code on the card in order to obtain the activation code they will need to activate the maps on their device. _________________ Peter
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Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject:
Probably becuase the SD card and the device had already been paired. You (and they) will need the code if you want to put on new or updated maps _________________ Peter
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Then got a 500 SD card.... put it in it and it worked ok - didnt have to put a code in.. The only code i put in was when i bought the PARIS map from TOMTOM and they gave me a code??????
You may find that you haven't bought the maps, simply the right for your personal use. A right which you may not be able to transfer, and could in theory be held as mis-describing goods if you tried to.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject:
Certainly the EULA (End User Licence Agreement) you have with Tom Tom says that the licenec is non-transferable. My view is that TT would have difficulty making that stick given that the software and maps are an essential piece of the equipment. I suspect that it would be found to be unfair and therefore unenforceable against a consumer. _________________ Peter
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Certainly the EULA (End User Licence Agreement) you have with Tom Tom says that the licenec is non-transferable. My view is that TT would have difficulty making that stick given that the software and maps are an essential piece of the equipment. I suspect that it would be found to be unfair and therefore unenforceable against a consumer.
Unfortunately in Civil Law, you would almost inevitably have to fund your own defence, so unless you can afford to go to the highest Court, all they would have to do is appeal any judgement made against them, and unless you could afford to continue, not only will you lose by default, but you would usually be responsible for their costs as well.
A well publicised example of this was the battle between Freddie Laker and British Airways. Freddie Laker ran out of money and went bust. But during a similar situation between Virgin and British Airways, Richard Branson sold the music side of his business so that he had sufficient cash to go all the way. I believe the case was settled without lengthy court cases.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject:
Legislation, the courts, and more importantly the rules under which they operate (the CPR), have changed considerably since Freddy Laker. Consumer legislation (mainly brought in on the back or European directives) is now much stronger - I think TT would probably loose under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.
The claim would only be for a small amount so would automatically be re-directed to the small claims courts, where costs are not normally awarded and procedures are slanted towards self representation. It is actually very difficult to appeal against a small claims judgement - the judges tend to find solely on the facts, which will not normally be appealable.
In any event the risk to TT is such that they would almost certainly NOT want it going to appeal - decisions of higher courts can be binding on other cases whereas decisions of the small claims courts are not. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
Legislation, the courts, and more importantly the rules under which they operate (the CPR), have changed considerably since Freddy Laker. Consumer legislation (mainly brought in on the back or European directives) is now much stronger - I think TT would probably loose under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.
The claim would only be for a small amount so would automatically be re-directed to the small claims courts, where costs are not normally awarded and procedures are slanted towards self representation. It is actually very difficult to appeal against a small claims judgement - the judges tend to find solely on the facts, which will not normally be appealable.
In any event the risk to TT is such that they would almost certainly NOT want it going to appeal - decisions of higher courts can be binding on other cases whereas decisions of the small claims courts are not.
I am well aware that the case I chose is quite old, and that legislation has changed. I am not questioning the law. I simply used this as an example of two similar cases (some may argue identical) with totally diferrent outcomes, not due to any difference in the law, but due to the financial position of the parties concerned. A situation which has not been eliminated.
I also accept about the requirement of exceptional circumstances to appeal, but we are often talking about companies with access to some of the best lawyers available, who may have little difficulty in demonstrating exceptional circumstances and obtaining an appeal.
I fully agree with your assertion about not wanting to set a precedent, but unfortuantely, especially where a PLC is concerned, whether they are in the right or wrong has little to do with it, they are legally obliged to best look after their shareholders interests (ie the company's bottom line). If this means bankrupting a claimant who is in the right, that is often what will be done. But so often it is purely a business decision, rather than a moral one.
In no way am I disagreeing with the legal position you state, nor with the fact that legislation continues to try to prevent the totally unfair type of situation I have described; simply stating that no matter how good your case, the outcome is rarely 100% certain.
Legal positions aside, while I feel that many of the terms are not moral, I do have my doubts that the case would be won in the first place, as I think that an 'unfair term' is somthing quite different. Until (or unless) we have legislation which forbids this type of term, it may well be deemed legally 'fair'. Just look at what can happen if you pass on a parking ticket to someone else to use the unexpired time - yes the space has been paid for, but only for the original vehicle, and those fines are enforced by the Courts.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject:
With regards to precedent I would think that it would be in TT's (and their owners) best commercial interests NOT to take it further to ensure that an adverse precedent is not set - that was my whole point.
With regards to your last paragraph I would suggest you look at S5(1) of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulation 1999. A term which cause a "significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations ... to the detriment of the consumer" will be considered unfair. S7 states that such an unfair term will not be binding on the consumer.
Parking enforcement is different and to a much smaller scale. It would be considered reasonable in all the circumstances. Whereas a term which effectively bars you from selling an expensive product you do own (such a TT Go 700) because the license for the essential software for that product is non-transferable would be a different matter altogether. That would lead to a "significant imbalance" in rights. Think what would happen if car makers (or TV, washing machine, camera, etc etc makers) had such a clause concerning their essential software!!
So my view remains that TT would have a great deal of difficulty making that part of the EULA stick (and probably only that part). It may well be different when you only buy the software license itself - as with TT5, rather than a consumer product which can only function (be fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality) with its built in software.
Roll on the first case. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
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You may, I am afraid, be missing the point I was making. In no way have I ever intended to sugest that you are wrong, just that I am nowhere as certain of the outcome as you seem to be. My gut feeling, is that if it hasn't been tested yet, it may well be that the lawyers aren't so confident either - or at least the no win no fee ones, and the ones you have under any legal insurance.
While I have never disputed the law you quote, and know that in an increasing number of situations the bias towards the consumer can be even greater than fairness would demand, but, as to whether it applies is another matter, which as you imply, the first case should sort out. While legislation may attempt to reduce imbalance, I am not aware of any restriction regarding the calibre of representation other than situations where legal representation is not allowed.
I don't know how relevant it is, but I once queried what seemed 'unfair terms' in mobile phone contracts with the regulators office, and was told that my assertions would have been correct, but for the fact that mobile phones started off as a business product which then moved into the consumer realm. As a consequence, the phone companies were 'getting away' with far more onerous terms and conditions than they would have otherwise - sound familiar?
Regarding the equipment, unless it were locked to prevent any other software being used, it would still have value appropriate to equipment of that type, something which the lack of software would be unlikely to afffect, but I don't know categorically if the software can be purchased separately, although, helping a relative install TomTom maps on a PDA, the options available during the initial stages appeared to imply that the software could also be installed on the GO and ONE series too.
I agree that you own the hardware, but you are unlikely to own any software. Yet another example of something which started in the commercial domain before crossing over to the consumer one - can you see a pattern emerging?
As to the detriment of the consumer, I do not disagree, but could it be sucessfully argued that to give transferability would cost the manufacturer, and would otherwise result in a more expensive product so there is no imbalence in rights and obligations, just that transferability was not bought - this is not an excuse and possibly not even a valid reason, just an example of how the something you feel indefensible could be defended, no doubt there will be many others, one which may be sucessful.
Once again, I am not suggesting that you are wrong, I actually hope that you are right, it is just that I think that you may be a little over-confident about what the outcome would be.
so.... going back to the main point..... is there any way i can get the product code for this orginal SD card Major routes of europe???? i paid for it from a TOM TOM dealer but lost the card?? surley i must be able to get the code back?????
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