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I don't mean to sound as though I'm simply dsmissing what you're saying - it just doesn't make sense to me why it only happens occasionally.
Is it possible that iTIS and/or TrafficMaster occasionally transmit data containing incorrect information which confuses the GPS?
Other GPS manufacturers use Tele Atlas maps.
The Mio consistently navigates you along the correct carriageway.
Do you know how TT or ANOther GPS behaves in that location and receiving the same TMC data?
Your Mio is receiving TMC data from a third party and has no control over its content or accuracy.
Radio stations use traffic information, but they have the benefit of human integration to ensure its accuracy prior to broadcasting to the public.
Have you ever had the benefit of a radio traffic bulletin (or other backup source) when you've experienced this phenomenon?
This morning, there were problems on the M3 and my unit correctly identified location and direction.
A big part of this problem is the lack of useful information regarding TMC:
exactly how is the data obtained?
how is the data processed?
how is the data transmitted?
how does the GPS handle the data?
does the GPS do any TMC processing or does it simply display what it receives?
what algorithms does the GPS use to re-route around a perceived problem?
It's all too easy to blame the Mio because that's what you're looking at, but there's a lot going on behind the scenes and involving third parties, which Mio and the GPS has absolutely no control over.
For example, is it always Microsoft or the PC manufacturer's fault if your computer gets a virus or does the fault lie elsewhere - receiving a 'contaminated' e-mail, opening a 'contaminated' attachment etc.
Where does the responsibility of the PC manufacturer end and third parties become responsible?
This need not be a philosophical discussion. I reported the initial 3.2 problems with TMC to Mitac (routing problems) and I received a reply saying that the problems were known to the software developers - other people also received responses saying that the relevant version had been pulled from the server amid problems with TMC.
The issue is really one of communication with Mitac - it may well be that there is a problem with the transmissions (which I seriously doubt because the core business of ITIS - whose share price is progressing very well - depends on accurate information). The problem is that without feedback info to Mitac there's no way of knowing where the problem is.
AA Roadwatch, available via http, receives its data from ITIS (maybenot as TMC) and does *not* replicate the main heading/subheading flow problem. AA Navigator does not replicate the same problem either (although I have not been able to test it on the same stretch of road and probably never will be able to).
TT TMC reports are provided in a very different way in terms of end user access and so any comparison with the real world use of that is a waste of time. Besides TT TMC is pretty poor anyway.
The point I made originally was that the problem did not exist when Mio TMC was provided by Trafficmaster.
If it isn't a problem for you then fine - I'm not clear though why, if the issue isn't important to you, you are responding to and tending to dismiss the photographic evidence of a problem. I take your point that the problem may be connected with the TMC transmission but actually the problem is that it isn't possible to get a response from Mitac on the issue (despite them addressing problems that did impact continental use).
The signal strength issue is a real shame. The Trafficmaster TMC worked very well in terms of signal strength but because of the switch to ITIS TMC is basically unusable for large parts of a journey and is completely absent in some major urban areas despite the fact that Classic FM is available. Is that a problem with the ITIS transmission model or a hardware "problem" connected with the Mio's shoestring lead which, however, works exceptionally well on the continent?
If the problem could be fixed (probably an easy problem to fix) then the functionality of TMC would be increased greatly because aside from automatic routing it would be possible to plan a journey through a manual glance at direction consistent TMC information. There are currently all sorts of odd things happening with direction reporting of a jam with the direction of a reported jam often changing as you approach the area of a jam or when/if a route takes in a jam (as opposed to passing over a jam). Short of taking a video camera with me on a journey and filming for 40 minutes or so I'm not going to be able to provide evidence of that - and there's no way I'm going to set up a video camera to film the device's real time processing of TMC information!
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject:
Retty wrote:
The point I made originally was that the problem did not exist when Mio TMC was provided by Trafficmaster.
...yet you continue to blame Mio
...you commented that the cause couldn't possibly be iTIS
Are you not contradicting yourself
With that, I'll love you and leave you since my humble opinion and comments clearly bear no relation to this subject and you obviously do not value my input.
The point I made originally was that the problem did not exist when Mio TMC was provided by Trafficmaster.
...yet you continue to blame Mio
...you commented that the cause couldn't possibly be iTIS
Are you not contradicting yourself
With that, I'll love you and leave you since my humble opinion and comments clearly bear no relation to this subject and you obviously do not value my input.
According to the iTIS web site, RDS-TMC codes are embedded in TeleAtlas map database.
Yes, I know I said I wouldn't respond any more....but this piece of information might be helpful.
In the meantime, I'm going to duck before you have chance to shoot
!
No, thanks.
I've just got back from Netherlands, Belgium and France. Some swine side swiped my car in Antwerp and then, magically, produced 2 Arabic speaking witnesses to say that I had hit his car if I dared to call the Police. Like a fool I didn't call the Police. Antwerp is a dodgy place - Belgium drivers in general make UK drivers look gifted. It's scary. Driving standards in France and the Netherlands put the UK to shame.
Anyway, a number of observations. I'll post some photos later (including a bug documented elsewhere whereby Miomap gives a right turn direction and a right turn icon for what should be a left turn direction according to both the map and to the real world situation. This bug was supposed to have been fixed but clearly hasn't been - and it was observed in Belgium!)
TMC in the mentioned areas of continental Europe suffers from none of the reception problems associated with Classic FM ITIS TMC here. The shoe string aerial works very well indeed. I was able to get *full* TMC reception on a moving train without the aerial!
Most of the info however is journalistic info - there's less of the real time sensor based info that we get in the UK (an exception to this is the French premium TMC service which, on this occasion although oddly not the last one, my C710 was able to pick up. The French service really is impressive).
But the direction bug doesn't impact continental reporting at all: both lines of direction info agree with each other. It's actually difficult to test it though. Firstly there's geographical knowledge and mine is very limited (which is why I use sat nav). Secondly, as I say, most of the reporting (exlcuding French premium reporting) is based on journalistic info where second line direction isn't a problem.
I was aware of the ITIS description of TMC reporting being embedded in the Teleatlas maps. But it's also true that ITIS works with Navteq enabled devices (although I don't have details of which ones).
I'm convinced that there is a bug which doesn't impact continental reporting (but I reckon that almost 100% of non France TMC reporting is journalistic - certainly in Belgium and Netherlands).
So TMC works well on the continent albeit perhaps a more restricted version which, aside from France, emphasises journalistic information concerning narrow lanes, road closures and Police checkpoints.
I kind of think that the experience of TMC in the UK is indicative of something crappy about the UK - you know late trains, poor food (Indian restaurant curry aside) and all that.
..and within a few hours of reporting the problem to Mio, I received a reply advising me that my issue was being investigated by the software developers. _________________ Andy
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Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject:
Retty,
I PM'd you yesterday evening - I don't know if you've picked it up, but I didn't want you to overlook it.
How's your Arabic these days? You didn't say what happened about your car - but as long as you're OK (and your Mio, of course) a car can easily be fixed or replaced. _________________ Andy
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I PM'd you yesterday evening - I don't know if you've picked it up, but I didn't want you to overlook it.
How's your Arabic these days? You didn't say what happened about your car - but as long as you're OK (and your Mio, of course) a car can easily be fixed or replaced.
Thanks!
Yes, the incident was quite nasty really mainly because the group of people was quite intimidating. They also said that if I called the Police they would say that I was the one who hit the other car. They did speak English - accused me of supporting the war in Iraq and all that!
Thinking back I should have called the Police when the other person refused to give me his details. It's odd how it's possible to lose sense just by being in a different country. Still, a passing motorist who spoke English (most Belgium people do speak English it seems) told me in the interests of safety to just get in to my car and drive off (he said it was the safest option).
There wasn't too much *visible* damage done to the car (about £200 worth or so of "Chips Away" work I suppose which won't however come up to repair garage standard). In hingsight I should have called the Police and almost certainly, in hindsight, I can see that the culprit didn't have insurance. He was worried.
The irony is that I took the route in question because of TMC re-routing around what turned out to be a jam that didn't exist!
I don't want to generalise too much from my probably unlucky encounter with a group of anti-social people full of ready made hate.
It's worth pointing out though that driving standards in Europe differ greatly. French motorists outside of city areas seem to be very considerate and forgiving. The same is true of motorists in the Netherlands - aside from Amsterdam (which is more like London in terms of driving standards) drivers in the Netherlands are oddly polite. Belgium has a terrible road safety record in terms of fatal accidents - one of the worst in western Europe.
UK drivers are probably one of the worst in terms of anti-social behaviour I think - it's the few with a power trip (most of them driving BMWs or over powered Mondeos) who have an impact far beyond their numbers that clinch it.
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:02 am Post subject:
I think also that Europeans have a totally different driving culture when it comes to multi-laned roads - they only pull out to overtake and then pull straight back in, which provides better traffic flow and gives a more relaxing drive.
...only the Brits seem to have this "it's my lane and I'm staying in it" attitude to the middle and outside lanes, slowing ALL the traffic down and leading to no end of frustration for other drivers.
If you want to see crazy driving, you should try Rome at rush hour - it's like dodgems on speed, LSD and most other things you can think of...goodness only knows how I came out of there unscathed!!
Your own safety is always paramount.
Hindsight is always a wonderful thing!
"Yesterday's history, tomorrow's a mystery and today's a blessing." _________________ Andy
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Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:13 am Post subject:
Have you had any more problems with TMC since returning from your recent travels?
Retty wrote:
Miomap gives a right turn direction and a right turn icon for what should be a left turn direction according to both the map and to the real world situation. This bug was supposed to have been fixed but clearly hasn't been - and it was observed in Belgium!
I think this confuses the issue even more because you seem to think that the TMC problem may be something to do with driving on the left, yet this erroneous instruction apparrently manifested itself in Belgium - where they drive on the right.
I've been thinking about this and there's no logical explanation either for why you've had each problem or why they've been experienced whilst you've been driving on both side of the road (but not at the same time I hope ) in the respective countries.
Whilst your Mio unit has remained unchanged (C710, I believe), these problems have seemingly become apparent after updates.
Do you remember if you updated MioMap software AND maps at the same time?
The problem(s) could relate to:
1) MioMap software, including TMC provider (switching from TrafficMaster to iTIS) during the update process
2) TeleAtlas maps for Mio
3) a combination of the above _________________ Andy
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Have you had any more problems with TMC since returning from your recent travels?
Retty wrote:
Miomap gives a right turn direction and a right turn icon for what should be a left turn direction according to both the map and to the real world situation. This bug was supposed to have been fixed but clearly hasn't been - and it was observed in Belgium!
I think this confuses the issue even more because you seem to think that the TMC problem may be something to do with driving on the left, yet this erroneous instruction apparrently manifested itself in Belgium - where they drive on the right.
I've been thinking about this and there's no logical explanation either for why you've had each problem or why they've been experienced whilst you've been driving on both side of the road (but not at the same time I hope ) in the respective countries.
Whilst your Mio unit has remained unchanged (C710, I believe), these problems have seemingly become apparent after updates.
Do you remember if you updated MioMap software AND maps at the same time?
The problem(s) could relate to:
1) MioMap software, including TMC provider (switching from TrafficMaster to iTIS) during the update process
2) TeleAtlas maps for Mio
3) a combination of the above
I've almost given up on UK TMC. The rception is in any case so bad with Classic FM and ITIS as to make TMC useless in my home range area. In recent weeks I haven't even been able to a decent amount of TMC messages - more than 1 or maybe 2 or 3 - until I drive about 10 miles or so away from home. I have the car kind of booked in for the TMC output to be wired to the car radio but the installer doesn't have a TMC filter plug and so I'm looking at weakening the car radio signal - not sure I want to do this.
The bug whereby icon/voice and map/real world directions conflict is something very different. This problem has been commented on in the GPS Passion forums on a number of occasions (it also affected the C310x). I had never encountered it until my recent trip to continental Europe. I even took a photo of the bug in action. I'll post it at some point. I heard that the bug was supposed to have been fixed with Miomap 3.2 updates but it obviously hasn't been. I haven't bothered to try to replicate it in flyover mode but I may give it a go later.
I think the TMC service got worse when the Mio switched to ITIS - undeniably so for me in terms of reception. I used to get 2TenFM easily but Classic FM TMC data is a no no. As for the other bugs (what I think are bugs) it's hard to tell. Miomap 3.2 seems to provide more information than 3.1 in terms of traffic incident information so it's not a case of comparing like with like. I think the ITIS service, on paper, is the better service - using a variety of data sources as well as lots of journalistic information in partnership with the AA - but in practice I think the data is less accurate than Trafficmaster in terms of identifying real jams as opposed to temporary and fast clearing congestion.
Anyway, all I can say is that in continental Europe both lines of the traffic flow agree with each other in terms of flow direction whereas in the UK, with ITIS, the second line almost always disagrees with the first line (except in the case of journalistic information where the second line usually stays the same irrespective of traffic flow).
My thought was that if the second line always disagrees with the main heading maybe the Mio is assuming right hand drive. If you assume right hand drive then the second line would always agree with the first line in the examples I provided.
I can't explain though why the problem only affects reporting on some roads - but at least it affects reporting on these roads consistently.
I've come to expect less of sat nav to be honest. On my recent trip there were too many Teleatlas mapping errors and far too many POI errors for comfort. The device was still worth its weight in gold but the conclusion I've drawn is that old fashioned paper preparation for unknown destinations is a must.
When I got lost in Brugges I used my mobile phone's GPRS connection to access the (beta I think) Java Google Maps application and then fed the correct road data in to the Mio which then took me to the correct location (incorrectly identified on the Teleatlas maps). The free Google Maps Java app (which unfortunately doesn't work with all Java phones) is one of the best free apps I've seen and well worth downloading to use as a tool to get you out of lost situations when sat nav fails.
I've almost given up on the TMC problem but it is frustrating to think that, from what I saw of TMC in France, the service can be so effective elsewhere.
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:12 am Post subject:
I only got a good 2-Ten FM reception around Hook/Odiham, then signal was patchy again down to south of Basingstoke, but then excellent reception from south coast stations (Power FM, Ocean FM to name 2).
I think the problem with the TrafficMaster TMC service down the M3 corridor is that you're driving down the boundaries between radio stations - Eagle/2-Ten/Power/Ocean - so you're likely to be in the poorest reception area for each.
I can drive half a mile down the road from home and TMC has re-tuned into 3 or 4 slightly different fequencies for Classic.
Some people use a mag mount aerial seemingly with good results - £15 from Maplins may be cheaper and easier thn having your aerial feed split _________________ Andy
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I only got a good 2-Ten FM reception around Hook/Odiham, then signal was patchy again down to south of Basingstoke, but then excellent reception from south coast stations (Power FM, Ocean FM to name 2).
I think the problem with the TrafficMaster TMC service down the M3 corridor is that you're driving down the boundaries between radio stations - Eagle/2-Ten/Power/Ocean - so you're likely to be in the poorest reception area for each.
I can drive half a mile down the road from home and TMC has re-tuned into 3 or 4 slightly different fequencies for Classic.
Some people use a mag mount aerial seemingly with good results - £15 from Maplins may be cheaper and easier thn having your aerial feed split
The Trafficmaster reception was never great but it was better than the ITIS Classic FM recpetion which is non existant in significant parts of south central England.
I was able to receive the 2-Ten TMC carrier in my home town (a major town in south central England) but no way can I get the Classic FM carrier except in freak weather conditions.
I have a picture of the C710 receiving full (or near full) TMC from a speeding train without shoe string aerial in the Netherlands!
We have a very poor TMC service in the UK - add that to the worst and most expensive public transport service in western Europe and you start to understand why some people invest so much hope in TMC!
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:45 am Post subject:
TrafficMaster already have a network of roadside transmitters, that's how their Freeway devices work.
What a pity roadside transmitters can't be used for TMC which, after all, is traffic and road related. _________________ Andy
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