ukpostcodes - end of the line

barleymo · Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: OS Copyright

To comment on Howardr's post. A friend of mine who used to work for OS told me that they put deliberate mistakes in their products to enable them to identify their data. The case with the AA highlighted this, they were able to identify their maps because of deliberate mistakes they put in. I suspect that they have done the same with their Post Codes db. Even though it is stripped down for our use, there is probably a phoney post code that they put in for purposes of identifying their data.

MarkHewitt · Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject:

Where did digitools and POISoft get their data from in the first place?

Oldboy · Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject:

MarkHewitt · Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:43 am Post subject:

My point is that the data didn't just appear from nowhere, it had to be obtained from an original source, and it's unlike that will be copyright free.

It's irrelavant now with the announcement of TomTom 5 anyway.

hookiestreet · Occasional Visitor Joined: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 28

have been using ukpostcode since the first day i had my pda with tom tom 3 installed. fantastic little bit of software which im sure will be missed like hell. Many thanks for the effort you put into this FREE tool and good luck in future projects. Why not ask OS if they want to work alongside you rather than destroying what you've done for all us tom tom users.
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DavidW · Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject:

As has already been said, the forthcoming TomTom Navigator 5 includes full postcodes for the UK. That being the case, there's really no market to make licensing the data and developing a third party product worthwhile.

David

nicknick · Regular Visitor Joined: 03/02/2003 17:18:53 Posts: 154

Coincidence or not?

1) all of a sudden the OS start trying bully boy tactics
2) TomTom very soon after announce TomTom 5 with full postcode support.

I wonder where TomTom are licencing their Postcode support from!

Maybe the picture becomes clear.

Wouldn't want a free alternative to compete with would we! That might impact on the old profits

I think you should challenge the OS to produce evidence that you are infringing their copyright
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Nick

DavidW · Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject:

My money would be on coincidence - for this reason. Navigator 5 also includes full postcode support for the Netherlands, which is the only other European country where postcodes are specific down to street level.

I don't believe there are or were any full postcode add-ons for the Netherlands.

David

nicknick · Regular Visitor Joined: 03/02/2003 17:18:53 Posts: 154

David,

I thought the Netherlands postcode support was already in TT3.

I seem to remember the debate we had when TTN3 originally claimed full postcode support, and this turned out to be a mistake as we don't have full numeric postcodes as they do in Holland, but they still claimed Dutch postcode support

But that may just be my old memory
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Nick

DuncanLawson · Occasional Visitor Joined: Oct 07, 2004 Posts: 12

As other people have said - I just can't understand what OS's claim is to the postcode data. The postcode database (PAF) is owned by Royal Mail.

What exactly are OS saying? Neils never used OS coordinates as part of the program so it's not that. OS don't have any claim over Lat/Long coordinates - that's an international measurement (bit like trying to saying you own the rights to the measurement units of cm etc!!)

What exactly are they saying Neils? It sounds like misplaced bully boy tactics and bulls**t!!

Duncan

DavidW · Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject:

I'm on the verge of locking this thread - though I'd like to explain why.

Niels has stated at the beginning of the thread that he's received a takedown request for the data from a copyright holder and that he's chosen not to fight that request but has agreed to delete all copies he holds of UK Postcode.

I take it that that probably means there no longer is a product to be "saved" (if that is the right word) by attempting to fight this.

Those that are saying the Royal Mail holds sole copyright on the postcode location data are almost certainly wrong. The information as to the authorship of that data is in page 169 of the PAF Digest. As the data is a co-production of the Royal Mail and other organisations, including Ordnance Survey, I suspect that the copyright is shared, and at least part of the copyright is likely to be Crown Copyright. I can quite believe that Ordnance Survey's legal department are well within their rights to enquire about the data on behalf of the various copyright holders - I would be very surprised if they had made a request to Niels that they were not entitled to do.

The hows and wherefores are, I suspect, likely to remain conjecture, and raking them over in the forums isn't helping anyone. Niels has already decided on his course of action.

The data is available to be licensed by anyone who wishes to enter into the appropriate commercial agreement with the copyright holder. My understanding is that there's a significant 'up front' fee to be paid, as well as a per user licence fee. However, I haven't made an explicit enquiry with respect to licensing the data.

As TomTom have decided to implement full postcode support in TomTom Navigator 5, I can't think it's worth anyone licensing the data to product an add-on for TomTom Navigator 3 and earlier versions now. By the time such a product could reach the market, TomTom Navigator 5 will almost certainly be available.

I don't buy the conspiracy theories, I'm afraid - I see it as TomTom throwing in a nice bonus by giving those of us in the UK fully licensed and up to date postcode information built in to the program alongside new maps when they launch the Navigator 5 upgrade. I think the timing is pure coincidence.

TomTom are not the first vendor to implement full postcode support - it's in AA Navigator, and I suspect it was a frequently requested feature for a future version of TomTom Navigator. There's been at least one forum thread recently where someone was going to pass over TomTom Navigator in favour of AA Navigator for full postcode support. I'm sure others have felt the same way.

This post is written with no inside knowledge, but purely from publicly available facts - namely Niels' post at the top of the thread, the TomTom Navigator 5 press release and details from the PAF section of the Royal Mail web site.

I suspect that Niels will choose not to comment further - though he is within his rights to do so. For now, I will not lock the thread, but would be grateful if people would try to keep things factual.

David

amcluesent · Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject:

I suspect that the copyright is shared...
I can quite believe that...
I would be very surprised...
My understanding is that...
I can't think it's worth anyone...
I think the timing is pure coincidence...
I'm sure others have felt...

...would be grateful if people would try to keep things factual...

Rolling Eyes

, yes, please report just the facts people, there's definitely no place for idle speculation on this board!

EvilTwin · Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:32 am Post subject:

It's just a thought, but could OS be developing a similar aplication, and are trying to scare the competition off?
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Oldboy · Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject:

DavidW · Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject:

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