Can we sue (lawyers out there?)

[Dave]

Guys, the problem with the crashing/lockups do seem to be Bluetooth. All of the people originally reporting the problem seemed to be under an XScale processor, but that seems not the case now. The only other coincidence here is people running the BTGPS.

[tedkay]

Visa Credit/Debit Card Protection.

It is worth noting that the protection provided differs between a Debit and a Credit card, either of which can be a Visa card! Basically the Debit card protection is far less (virtually non-existant!). I found this out to my cost recently after using my Debit card to pay for something which arrived broken (which from what I have read in these forums seems to describe Nav11 and which the supplier refused to exchange. On contacting the complaints department for my Debit (Visa) card I was surprised to be told that I should have used my Credit card to pay because that has much better protection etc.

As far as taking a foreign Company to Court under UK law is concerned one should consider that it is possible to get a judgement against the Company - but the UK Court has no power of enforcement! - and you will have to pay your own legal costs. Far better to order from a UK supplier in the first place and avois the complication.

[musicreative]

I already tried v1.50 GPS module with TTN2. Exactly the same problems as with the new version of the GPS module.



3970 (ROM2.0) + Emtac BTGPS.



Tim

[sdharris]

I'm starting to wonder whether the previous version of of the GPS software would still work with TTN2. I never had a problem with 1.51 or whatever it was.
_________________
HW: HP hx4700, Emtac BT GPS (the orginal one that cost a fortune) & SPV C500.
SW: TomTom 5.

[alienrider]

For reference my experiences,



If you use a Debit or Credit Card issued by a UK bank, and you are unhappy with a purchase you have made with that card, due to retailer issues etc, you are entitled to ask your bank to dispute the transaction, I have used this a number of times with retailers who are 'trying it on' with great effect.



What this essentially does is freeze the payment and start the process of reversing the funds back to your account, while the Bank makes the necessary investigations. This has an associated charge which is costly to a retailer when, they have to take back opened goods with a lower resale value and return the full amount due to you plus bank charges. Though I am not an expert, usually for me the threat of doing this has been enough, as retailers are aware of the rights of the consumer under the Uk credit act.



Also doesn't Visa provide protection against fraudulent transactions where what you ordered using their card was not what you got ?



This is just my personal experience, and it may not work for you, but I hope it helps.



Regards,



B

[Mark R Penn]

Quote: This is the only place you can rely on if you cannot resolve any dispute with your oversea supplier.

---

No UK authority can enforce any UK law on any oversea company selling a product from oversea.

---

From the Office of Fair Trading web site:

Quote: Whose law applies?

---

If, for example, a consumer in England buys goods on the internet from a French supplier, English law will usually apply unless another choice of law is expressed (usually by a clause in the contract itself). Even if the contract does say that a particular country's law will apply, you may still have some normal statutory rights under UK law. You should get legal advice on whose law would apply in your particular case.

---

However I do agree that it could be complicated to enforce, as even if you got a ruling from a UK court, you might then have to get a Dutch one to enforce it if TomTom decided not to comply.



But, my main point is that this should not stop anyone from threatening action if all else fails. It's certainly do-able, and not something any company of TomTom's status would relish.



Also, you may well find that Dutch law gives simmillar or even better protection, though of course trying to find out would be a last resort.


_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Pc-Mobile]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 09 April 2003

---

Also guys remember that if you bought using a credit card, you might have some prottection there - worth checking.

---

This is the only place you can rely on if you cannot resolve any dispute with your oversea supplier.



No UK authority can enforce any UK law on any oversea company selling a product from oversea.
_________________
Pc-Mobile
http://pc-mobile.net/gps.htm

[Pc-Mobile]

Quote: Originally posted by JackT on 09 April 2003

---

Hi,

I tested this morning TTN2 using a Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket Loox (Xscale processor) and a Socket Bluetooth GPS : no problems.

So the problems you decribed may not be specifically linked to the use of a Xscale processor and/or a Bluetooth GPS...

JT

---

This may be a key/clue. Tom Tom should take note.

Almost all problems seem to be associated with Ipaq/BT.

I am not to say there is any problem with Ipaq or BT GPS or TT2. The issue must be be compatibility.



It is impossible for any software author to test with every hardware available but there is no excuse for TomTom not to have tested it with the PPC that it is most likely to be used on before rushing it onto the market. It may be problems that can be solved, but they should have solved it first.



The "false claim" is another issue though.
_________________
Pc-Mobile
http://pc-mobile.net/gps.htm

[Mark R Penn]

Also guys remember that if you bought using a credit card, you might have some prottection there - worth checking.
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Kram]

I wonder whether the problems are linked to the GPS driver(s) rather than to Bluetooth specifically?



I installed TTN2 yesterday (IPAQ 3970, Pretec Compact CF GPS, using SD card for the app, the voice, the map, the GPS driver and GPSAssist, i.e. everything installed on SD) and find that when the Pretec CF GPS is NOT installed then I have frequent lockups and one instance where the screen seemed to lose sync and scroll wildly far too fast to read anything. When I have the Pretec CF GPS plugged in then it appears very reliable or at least it was for all my journeys yesterday lasting a few hours in total.

[sdharris]

For the record I have a Loox and Emtac BTGPS, mine has locked up a couple of times and usually the GPS software reports it had connected to the BT unit but data is not being received from it i.e. the tick is in the box but the status tab is greyed out. Hopefully it just needs an update to the GPS software. I'm hoping for ver2.1 v.soon.



Cheers.
_________________
HW: HP hx4700, Emtac BT GPS (the orginal one that cost a fortune) & SPV C500.
SW: TomTom 5.

[Mark R Penn]

Tony,



Your contract is with Navcity, and they are obliged to honour your statutory rights. These include a refund if the item is not fit for purpose - you ordered something advertised as capable of getting you from A-B using post codes, and it is NOT capable of that, so therefore it is not fit for purpose. If in addition it repeatedly fails then it is also not of "merchantable quality" - again grounds for an immediate refund (assuming you have only used supported devices, and have followed all the instructions provided).



For Navcity to say that it is up to the manufacturer is not right, and is contrary to UK consumer law. If THEY want to take it up with TomTom. I would mention to them that it is their responsibility under UK law, and that if they do not offer an immediate refund, you will be claiming your additional costs in pursueing them as well as the cost of the product.



As you have no contract with TomTom direct, you cannot normally demand a refund from them, but they might still give in if you get nowhere with Navcity. That's up to how much they value customer support. It would possibly strengthen your case with Navcity if you could show that you had tried to resolve the problems with TomTom support, but had been unable to, but you don't have to give them any oportunity to develop a fix - they were happy to go to market with the product as is, and you have a right to expect it to work (substancialy at least) without further development.



NB, I am not a lawyer, but I have had a few (succesful) run in's with retailers who tried to claim "it's not my fault mate, I didn't make it". Tough. They did choose to sell it and are happy to take the profit, therefore they have created responsibilities for themselves.



Mark
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Talkingbollox]

I don't have a BTGPS........

[tmaharaj]

Hi:

Are there any lawyers out there that can provide advice whether we can sue TomTom for a pathetic, buggy, untested software in TTN2?

I have paid £119 for this software and it hands down this is the most buggy misrepresented software that I have ever come across.

I have an ipaq 3970, Socket BT GPS receiver, and TTN2. TTN cannot even do a single trip without crashing, jamming the Socket receiver. I will not go into the details of ALL the errors as I feel the rest of this forum has done a good job detailing it (and I experience every one of the problems!).

For TomTom not to have tested the software on a platform as common as the one I am using is unforgivable and unimaginable. Frankly I don't think that they didn't test it, I believe that they were fully aware of the bugs but released it anyway.

So should we pay the amount the retail price for a product which is clearly in alpha testing?

I am a software developer as well and if I ever produced software of this quality as the final product, I would be fired immediately!

So on a serious note, is the a lawyer out there that can provide advise on starting a class action against TomTom (as the one started against Compaq for faults in the iPaq).

I was a strong TomTom fan, but frankly will not use their software again.



Tony.



P.S.: Was anyone sucessfull in getting a refund from TomTom? (If so can you please pass the relevant details to me)

[tmaharaj]

I have purchased this through Navcity (Ria Technolgies) and their after sales service ends very promptly once the funds are in their possesion. Any queries about a refund, exchange etc is met with "did you contact the supplier to arrange a swap/refund" which is ridiculous.

So where does this leave me in terms of a refund? Will TT refund it?



Also, in reponse/addition to Mark Penn's posting, I agree wholeheartedly that this product has been misrepresented. One of the chief deciding factors in me buying TTN2 was the fact that UK postcodes WERE supported. I am very new to the UK and should not have to do additional research to find the City of the postcode before inputting it into TTN2, especially on a product that was clearly advertised to provide this solution.



The only reason I chose TTN2 over Destinator 2 was that TTN2 advertised this functionality and therefore tipped the pros of purchasing TTN2 over Destinator2.



I do not accept that there is a problem with the Socket BT GPS receiver, nor the iPaq 3970, nor the PocketPC 2002 operating system/drivers/SD card etc. If multiple other mapping software works flawlessly with this exact setup, then a process of simple elimination yields the culprit!



Forgetting for a moment the extra bells and whistles, this product is simply not functional. It cannot get me from A to B reliably without crashing. I spent 20 min on the A3 pulled off in the emergency lane waiting for it to release the lock on my Socket BT receiver to try and get a fix so that I could FIND MY WAY HOME (started off the trip working and then lost itself).



This is like looking at the spec of a superbike, seeing the pictures, doing the research and purchasing it for a small fortune (but swallowing the sting by reinforcing the stong points of the spec). Upon delivery, the bike happens to be a bicycle that has a wheel that falls off every kilometer.



To summarize: I do not expect software to reach the end user with no bugs. What I do expect is that the software does what is is advertised to do in a fairly accurate and functional manner...in the absence of doing so a prompt refund should be provided by "the buck stops here" TomTom.



Tony



P.S.: Does anyone have a speak-to-a-human-person telephone number for TomTom?

We see you’re using an ad-blocker. We’re fine with that and won’t stop you visiting the site.
Have you considered making a donation towards website running costs?.
Or you could disable your ad-blocker for this site. We think you’ll find our adverts are not overbearing!