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which direction can mobile camera vans detect?

 
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Bunty1948
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Location: Northallerton North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject: which direction can mobile camera vans detect? Reply with quote

Sorry to appear a little stupid here, but can/do mobile camera vans parked on the highway verge detect speed of vehicles travelling in one direction only or are they capable of prosecuting both directions of travel.

Many years ago, as a young highway engineer I regularly used the "old" radar guns to assess vehicle speeds on sections of highway subject to redesign, and the radar was capable of accurately recoding speeds of vehicles approaching and receding from the weapon. Does anyone know if the camera vans can do the same.

I only ask as I currently have my CamerAlert app set to notify me of mobiles that I believe record vehicles in the same direction of travel as myself so as to reduce the number of warnings.

Alan
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: which direction can mobile camera vans detect? Reply with quote

Bunty1948 wrote:
are they capable of prosecuting both directions of travel.
Yes. But usually only one way. But if you are foolish enough to speed after passing one on the other side, you are asking to get caught. Shocked Hand helds, of course only requires Mr. plod to turn around and trap people coming the other way in seconds.
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: which direction can mobile camera vans detect? Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
Bunty1948 wrote:
are they capable of prosecuting both directions of travel.
Yes. But usually only one way.

AND does he know which way they are trapping as he approaches? They are pointing south, but are they currently trapping vehicles heading north or south?
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suspect north, as those travelling south would notice the big camera van parked there and slow down if necessary.
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Bunty1948
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: which direction can mobile camera vans detect? Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
M8TJT wrote:
Bunty1948 wrote:
are they capable of prosecuting both directions of travel.
Yes. But usually only one way.

AND does he know which way they are trapping as he approaches? They are pointing south, but are they currently trapping vehicles heading north or south?


Dennis

I'm glad you brought this up because as a newbie to CamerAlert I am somewhat confused by the recording system.

I recorded a "new" site on the A19 in Shipton by Beningbrough, just north of York. I was travelling south towards York and the camera van was sited on my side of the road facing north, but presumably recording vehicles travelling north as the rear of the van was facing south.
Now I selected the new camera icon and followed the options: Mobile; 30 mph. But then it askes me on which side it was. I initially chose "this side", but then realised of course that this would presumably record the site as being southbound traffic. When I reached my destination I reselected the camera to check that I had the correct direction. It appeared that I hadn't as firstly it stated my direction of travel as 155 deg. and on the mapping showed the arrow pointing south. I tried to edit the site to show the van on the "other" side as that appears to indicate an arrow showing the direction of travel as being northbound. However when I now look at the site of the map it still shows the arrow as facing south.

I have subsequently used the web site to edit the site to show correctly which direction it was recording.

Qu.1 Does the direction of travel of my vehicle, which was 155deg. override the choice of direction in the app or should I have chosen "other side" and ignored the actual side of the road that the van was parked on.
Qu.2 Having apparently initially chosen the wrong "side" why does the editing process fail to change the direction.
Qu.3 Or am I a complete and utter idiot? Rolling Eyes
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bunty1948,

A very quick reply (sorry, I'm late for work):

The main thing is to submit details of a new camera site, then if you can get it as accurate as possible then it does does help but MaFt and the verifiers will take each site and recommend improvements if necessary i.e. a slight move if the coordinates are out, change of speed limit, heading, and whether it is one direction or both directions.

I'm sure that Dennis will give a longer and better answer on his return. Thumbs Up

Regards,
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if I can give a longer answer, although I often tend to ramble on a bit!

I confess this is something which somewhat confuses me. Bear in mind, I am no more knowledgeable about how the App works than anybody else except the designer/developer. It has been my assumption that if I tap "other side" it (the App) will get it right and position the camera and heading as not trapping my current direction, not positioned my side of the road, but trapping the opposite direction from the other side of the road. That became somehow important to me when I submitted a report of a fixed camera "other side" when I was travelling anti-clockwise on the M25 - the overhead gantry-mounted camera array was trapping clockwise traffic. I hoped the app got it right, because I was too far from home to remember where it was!

With fixed cameras, I think that is pretty definite. But with mobiles, what I was trying to say was that the camera may be looking south, but none of us know whether it is trapping approaching or receding traffic, do we? I think it might help if we generally consider most mobiles as bi-directional, it only takes a small shift of the thingy between right and left to get this side or other side, innit? I've never seen inside a mobile van, but surely it can be wiggled a bit from side to side and up and down?

Not all that long ago, as a Verifier, I would have rejected a camera this side reported as trapping other side when it was on a dual carriageway, on the grounds that interference from the intervening central reservation safety barrier would prevent it from operating in that direction. That theory went out the window when a member reported getting a ticket from one of my local ones. As verifiers, we often will report back that the single direction mobile should be accepted as bi-directional, simply because the location allows for a switch of direction at will.

As Privateer says, the main thing is to submit reports of cameras and MaFt and the verifiers will look at it - we've been doing this for nearly ten years now, so we have come across most things. It doesn't bother us if somebody gets the direction wrong because we realise it can be misunderstood. You do have the chance, by the way, when submitting a camera, to add comments to clarify what you intend.

In general, I believe M8TJT was pretty accurate in inferring that most camera vans operate against approaching traffic, not receding, simply for the gotcha factor.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that what "This side" and "The other side" really means is that if the camera is trapping in YOUR direction of travel, it is "This side". If it is trapping in the opposite direction it is "The other side". My rational for this is that when the camera is entered into the database, if you have reported "This side", then the trapping direction will be entered as your heading at the time of the report. If it is reported as "The other side" then MaFt will enter the camera trapping direction as the reciprocal of your heading at the time of reporting.
Perhaps MaFt will confirm/deny this assumption.
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Kremmen
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a location near Woking outide McLarens that is in the database as a mobile site.

The van that sometimes parks there is backed up with Plod motorcyclists on both sides of the road both close to the van and more a short distance away. What they are doing from what I can tell is checking tax, mot and insurance as the vehicles I see stopped are often wrecks.

The transit style van has twin high mounted cameras front and rear within the rear section so has to be both directions.

Whether it is also checking speed ?
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question "which direction can mobile camera vans detect?" has been asked before, in the thread Mobile Speed Camera Van Detection Direction. Here's what I wrote in that thread:

Privateer wrote:
I attended the Three Counties Show, near Malvern, on Saturday 20th June 2009. The Gloucestershire Safety Camera Partnership had a stand at the show with a couple of Safety Camera Vans and a motorbike.

I spoke to one of the civilian camera van operators and he confirmed that once set up and running the camera/laser system can capture vehicles both approaching and driving away from the van. Therefore mobile Safety Camera Van/Motorbike sites should always initially be considered as reversible. Obviously if the site is located on the side of a dual carriageway then it may not be possible for the operator to target the opposite direction, especially if there are any visual obstructions (trees, bushes, fencing, etc) in the central reservation.

In the case of vehicles with only a rear number plate (e.g. motorbikes) the external CCTV cameras on the Safety Camera Van can be used to record that information and when the van goes back to base then the number plate of the speeding vehicle can can be determined from the recorded evidence.

I think that the above still holds true.

Whilst fixed sites are easy to verify, each mobile site has to be treated as unique and thus be judged on it's own merits. As a a verifier I try to think like a camera operator and consider the following:

Is it safe for me to park my vehicle and operate from the vehicle and/or with a hand-held unit
Is the road suitable for speeding?
Is there a lot of traffic?
Can I hide myself and/or the vehicle?
Is there a hill where I can catch motorist as they come over the crest?

At most sites, speeders get caught by a camera connected to a laser which results the speeder receiving a NIP in the post. However speeders can occasionally still be caught by somebody holding a unit to check their speed and using the radio to get an officer to intercept the speeder a short way down the road.

Regards,
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
I think that what "This side" and "The other side" really means is that if the camera is trapping in YOUR direction of travel, it is "This side". If it is trapping in the opposite direction it is "The other side". My rational for this is that when the camera is entered into the database, if you have reported "This side", then the trapping direction will be entered as your heading at the time of the report. If it is reported as "The other side" then MaFt will enter the camera trapping direction as the reciprocal of your heading at the time of reporting.
Perhaps MaFt will confirm/deny this assumption.

That's also my understanding of "This side" and "The other side".

Say you're travelling due east, which is a heading of 090, and you see a camera van that is obviously only trapping vehicles travelling the same direction as you (due east aka 090) then you tap "This side" on CamerAlert.

If the camera van is obviously only trapping vehicles travelling the opposite direction as you (i.e. due west aka 270) then you tap "The other side" on CamerAlert.

So CamerAlert takes "This side" as your current heading and "The other side" as 180 plus or minus of your current heading because a heading can be anything between 000 and 359.

If a camera is marked as "Both directions" then you will get warnings in either direction of travel along the road.

In CamerAlert you have the option to "Ignore directional data" so you will get alerts from ANY direction as soon as you are within warning distance. Personally I prefer not to have "Ignore directional data" selected, so I'm only warned when necessary. On the iPhone version of CamerAlert this setting can be found:

Warnings | Ignore directional data (on/off)

Hope this helps. Thumbs Up
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