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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: My View for what it's worth
The database at £20 (or thereabouts) is great value. Each time I've contributed a new or confirmed sighting, I'm doing to help others, as they are helping me, to make sure I have the most accurate information possible, I really am not bothered at all about getting a lifetime subscription, and I've always considered that to be an unsustainable offer. A free year, or maybe as been already mentioned, go in a draw, (monthly, six monthly, or yearly) to win a piece of kit. Ultimately I want an accurate database at a good price. On the flip side, I wouldn't like to think my money is going towards a few website shareholders who are driving around in Aston Martins, and living a champagne lifestyle travelling first class on planes etc, on my subscription money.
Despite suggestions to the contrary there may be legal problems with taking this benefit away. There could well be some form of contract between PGPSW and each life member. It does not need money to change hands to make a contract, so no "sale" as such is needed. What it needs is consideration. And that does not have to be monetary, but is must have some "value". The consideration given by the member is the submission of the camera. The consideration given by PGPSW is the lifetime membership. Both have a value and they could made a binding contract between the parties.
But all this is academic because PGPSW have decided not to revoke the life memberships.
there could also be legal problems with taking the offer away from current subscribers until their subs expire for the year, as it is stated as a benefit of subscription (incentive) on the subscription page...
timlofts wrote:
I wouldn't like to think my money is going towards a few website shareholders who are driving around in Aston Martins, and living a champagne lifestyle travelling first class on planes etc, on my subscription money.
that you will not know until the yearly accounts can be seen at Companies House...
Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 14906 Location: Keynsham
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:18 am Post subject:
Plus there's the matter of fair and reasonable terms of contract - even though this is offered, not demanded, I bet a court would let them off - "free lifetime" really is unfair and unreasonable - it's impossible to foresee financial circumstances as far ahead as even MY lifetime, never mind the 25 year old latest Lifer, and the court would give protection to even the most naiive. _________________ Dennis
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15356 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:31 am Post subject: Re: My View for what it's worth
timlofts wrote:
I wouldn't like to think my money is going towards a few website shareholders who are driving around in Aston Martins, and living a champagne lifestyle travelling first class on planes etc, on my subscription money.
Trust me, it's not! We've decided against going to certain trade fairs purely due to the costs. When we did MWC in Barcelona this year myself, Mike and Darren did it all in a day because it was cheaper to get a same-day return flight for 3 of us than it was for just one to stay in a hotel for a night. We all have other jobs to help ends meet. I drive a Ford Focus in 'chav blue' - hardly an Aston Martin! I think Darren has a Peugeout...
Just to say I'm NOT in favor of life time members retaining that perk.
After 6 years trying to spot new cams and failing to do so , seems harsh some one can now no longer get a perk some will retain forever.
From the free model to to pay for model I stuck with you. I went from free to pay monthly onto subscription you had no issues telling me my T&Cs were changing and I yes I may have thought but I needed the database so pay'd for it.
So now if me and like minded members who pay for the database access, say "enough" and just leave you lose at least my £20.00 per year , but if a lifer leaves because you change their T&Cs you lose £0.0 do the Maths There is no room in business for soft decision making or is this like the old school tie brigade and secret hand shakes .
if this database is needed then we should all pay for it. If we don't all pay then it wont survive .
And a flaw in your model is subscriptions you get someone to sign up at Xmas with the Xmas sale and the price is reduced to £13.00 after that all they pay every renewal is 13.00 because once its set in paypal you cant change it even if you increase the new sign up fee so you lose a huge sum just in that one area .
Still have Xmas sale and offer x% off but get them to subscribe at the full £20.00 and refund x% yes it's extra admin but the revenue reclaimed is huge.
Even the law says life is not really life
From the sound of Darren's last post the teams mind is made up so this post will just feed the trolls .
For the legal side surely as a freeby there is no loss, perhaps you should stick up the standard proviso get out i.e. while stocks last. _________________ Moto G5s Plus, Sygic 17.4.8
Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 14906 Location: Keynsham
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: Re: My View for what it's worth
timlofts wrote:
Ultimately I want an accurate database at a good price. On the flip side, I wouldn't like to think my money is going towards a few website shareholders who are driving around in Aston Martins, and living a champagne lifestyle travelling first class on planes etc, on my subscription money.
Well, I don't give a rat's A what/how they drive and fly. The clue is in your first sentence - "goods supplied at a good price". I can imagine quite a few supermarket etc CEOs driving and flying in luxury, but I don't begrudge them that so long as my spuds come out cheap, that's life.
Thank you bullbrand for good, down-to-earth commonsense throughout the whole of your post. _________________ Dennis
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:55 am Post subject:
The loss will be the cost to put the member back in the position he would have been but for the breach (or repudiation I suspect in this case). And that would probably be assessed as the cost he would have to pay each year to remain a member. Damages can cover both past and future loss.
Having said all that I am not a lifetime member so have no direct interest in this issue. I can understand the problem that PGPSW has and I want it to remain in business and be able to provide an accurate and up to date camera database. I would be happy to let the lifers keep their benefit and the rest of us work on some sort of points basis covering both first submissions and subsequent confirmations, as has been suggested earlier in this thread. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 14906 Location: Keynsham
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:04 am Post subject:
peterc10 wrote:
The loss will be the cost to put the member back in the position he would have been but for the breach (or repudiation I suspect in this case). And that would probably be assessed as the cost he would have to pay each year to remain a member. Damages can cover both past and future loss.
Now where did that come from? When I studied contract law, loss was something tangible - i.e. I lose twenty pounds if they say I can't have free membership any longer - but I don't lose twenty pounds. And I then have the choice whether or not to subscribe to the service, but I've lost nothing. _________________ Dennis
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject:
bullbrand wrote:
So now if me and like minded members who pay for the database access, say "enough" and just leave you lose at least my £20.00 per year , but if a lifer leaves because you change their T&Cs you lose £0.0 do the Maths There is no room in business for soft decision making or is this like the old school tie brigade and secret hand shakes .
if this database is needed then we should all pay for it. If we don't all pay then it wont survive
Had it occurred to you that without the 'spotters' and verifiers, who are rewarded for their efforts with free access to the database, this database would probably rank alongside TT's. It is accepted by 'them up there' that some sort of reward should be given for their time and effort, so the question is realy 'How much reward should be given?'
bullbrand wrote:
From the sound of Darren's last post the teams mind is made up so this post will just feed the trolls .
From Darren's posts it seems like he does not want to withdraw existing life membership, but as I said above it's just a case of how to reward new spotters. Nothing to do with little men who hide under bridges.
And as for this 'legal stuff'
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject:
DennisN wrote:
Now where did that come from? When I studied contract law, loss was something tangible - i.e. I lose twenty pounds if they say I can't have free membership any longer - but I don't lose twenty pounds. And I then have the choice whether or not to subscribe to the service, but I've lost nothing.
I am afraid that that is not the law of damages. Their whole point is, as far as possible, to put the parties back in the position they would have been had the repudiation or breach not happened.
Prospective loss, i.e. on damages for sums of money payable in the future, is a legitimate head of claim for damages. In assessing the future loss the courts will take into account the contingencies of life and other uncertainties affecting the future. In some cases damages will be assessed based not upon what has been paid or will be paid in the future, but in the reduction in the value of the goods or services bought. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
Joined: May 08, 2006 Posts: 252 Location: West Midlands. UK
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject:
I'm sorry and I know we are getting way off from the point of the original question, but the main thing that I would hate most is if people who once achieved lifetime membership for reporting their first camera and then never bothered reporting any others.
The crux of the case is that I don't think the genuine spotter will be the ones complaining but the one of spotter merchants who would have lost their membership "IF" PGPSW had gone down the rout of revoking it and starting afresh.
That annoys me far more than staff travelling around the world working their hind quarters off to bring us the latest news.
Now, what was the original question, maybe a trip back to the first post is called for!! _________________ (If it ain't broke, I can soon fix it)
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but I needed the database so pay'd for it.
