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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: TomTom takes aim at OpenStreetMap
It would appear that TomTom are more than a little troubled by the growing success of OpenStreetMap, the open source community mapping project.
TomTom have posted an article on their website pointing out the drawbacks of open source maps. The article makes some bold claims about their accuracy and the problems of relying on community reports.
Now I'm sure many of you will think this a little cheeky of TomTom. Those of you who have experienced the length of time it can take for them to update their maps may not think they have too much to boast about. And MapShare is after all, little more than a community powered reporting tool.
TomTom don't mention OpenStreetMap directly, but they do refer to a 'leading provider' who experienced over 100,000 individual cases where data was changed either accidentally or maliciously. This can only be a reference to OpenStreetMap and whilst the true number is disputed by them, the actual damage was minimal and spotted quickly.
One OpenStreetMap support has blogged about TomToms claims with each of their points answered here.
OpenStreetMap data does have errors and omissions, but then so does TomTom. It's in the nature of OpenStreetMap that any issues they experience are discussed and made public whereas TomTom keep their mapping troubles very much in-house.
Perhaps this is a case of 'people who live in glass houses should not throw stones?'.
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: Tom Tom maps are poor
I used Tom Tom for years and their map accuracy is poor. Roads that had been built for years didn't show up etc. They then want £24 (probably more now) to buy an updated map!
Started to use Waze now, and whilst it has its issues at least the map is updated regularly and quickly. And the cost - nothing!
The price of Tom Tom on an iPhone is extortionate - they will lose their business if they don't change their business model.
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15257 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:30 am Post subject:
dazzabird wrote:
The time it takes TomTom to update maps is a joke.
Ah yes, but this allows them to be more accurate and, thus, safer because after 12 months and 15,000 people reporting the new road they are pretty certain it is there so can then consider adding it to the maps. And it's all about safety after all.
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20 Posts: 4918 Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:35 am Post subject:
Two words to TomTom: "Mini Roundabouts"!
I'm not aware of any changes that I have submitted to TomTom have ever been implemented - I have certainly never had any feedback from them to say whether they received the changes or whether they were going to implement the changes.
I have never submitted any changes to OSM solely because all of the areas that I have looked at have been accurate and didn't need any changes!
I firmly believe in submitting changes for the greater community good, but when TomTom doesn't implement (or show that they even investigate) my submitted changes then why should I waste my time submitting to TomTom?
Don't get me wrong, I like TomTom devices and their GUI - however TomTom's attitude really does need to change!
Regards, _________________ Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
For what I have heard, a lot of Open Street Maps roads lack metadata. Like directions of one way streets, speed limits, house numbers, and so on. So there's more to 'coverage' than just plain roads. Also the maps are better in populated areas (more community members) and not in desolated areas. So I think driving with OSM is not really safe.
That said, the OSM project does have a lot of value for other purposes than driving. Like pedestrian use, location based services and advertising. Or websites, like real estate.
The reason why carmanufacturers rely on Navteq and/or TeleAtlas maps, is that they also have a validating process in place. I don't think car manufacturers are fond of the idea that anyone can edit the open street maps, without a formal validating process.
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:38 am Post subject:
tomtom_shareholder wrote:
The reason why carmanufacturers rely on Navteq and/or TeleAtlas maps, is that they also have a validating process in place.
I don't think this is in dispute at all. What is in dispute is the length of time this 'validating process' takes, especially on major road improvements. These are generally announced several years in advane, with accurate details available, which the map producers could use to 'pre map' the roads, then publish the changes on the next release after the road is opened. Simples!
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 10643 Location: Suffolk, UK
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:10 am Post subject:
Privateer wrote:
Two words to TomTom: "Mini Roundabouts"!
I'm not aware of any changes that I have submitted to TomTom have ever been implemented - I have certainly never had any feedback from them to say whether they received the changes or whether they were going to implement the changes.
When I've submitted them online with Map Share Reporter the Status always comes back as 'Not accepted'. _________________ Richard
TT 910 V7.903: Europe Map v1045
TT Via 135 App 12.075: Europe Map v1135
It is interesting that they are scared of this, but I wonder how scared they need to be. The adopters so far that I've seen are using them in "non-critical" places. Apple in their photo app for example, so you can see where you took the photograph. Who cares if the street is one way or not? It doesn't matter. They aren't navigating using it, so the details don't matter.
Perhaps the scary part is that it gives the open maps credibility, and that's what they have to fight. But the root cause of the switch is not the mapping, but the cost of the mapping now that Google charges for use. I'm sure that Apple and others would be happy to use the TomTom data if a sensible price were to be worked out.
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15257 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject:
But even if the one-way street is marked incorrectly in OSM I can simply make a note of it, go home, edit it and then next time I go there it is correct.
On any other satnav I would have to pay £30-40 for a map update maybe 6 months down the line that may (or may not) include the correction.
Yes, I MAY be able to use MapShare to edit it (if the TomTom in question had that feature) but the one that is wrong on TomTom maps and has been for at least 5 years near me cannot be corrected using MapShare.
The road is about 400 yards long. TomTom maps have it marked incorrectly as a one-way road when, in fact, it is two-way except for 50yards at the end of it. Trying to change it in MapShare ONLY allows me to change the whole length of the road. BUT if I do that it is wrong as it will want me to go that way when I know I cannot get out of the top. But leaving it as an incorrect one-way then means that I don't get navigated the shortest way home - you see there's a junction along the 400yard stretch that goes to my house - but TomTom have it as a one way street so it won't even let me access that road.
In OSM it took less than a minute to add the one-way part to the small section at the end of the road. TomTom, as far as I am aware, still haven't fixed it and have not acted upon my online correction. MapShare on the device is not clever enough to fix it either.
For some reason TomTom didn't mention the (massive) limitations of MapShare in their article...
The beauty of OSM is that it is for everyone. Pedestrians, Walkers, Ramblers, Mountaineers, Cyclists, MBRers, Downhillers, Off-Roaders, Skiers, Canoeists, Sailers, Horse Riders, etc. etc. etc. and ......Drivers.
If everybody would ensure that their "patch" was accurate it would be the equivalent of an OS map of the world. Wouldn't that be brilliant?
In my area I was probably one of the first to contribute when the villages around Figueres were just a "blob". I started in 2009 when I got my first SatNav, there are about 8 or 9 of us now who regularly contribute around here. I always find the mapping more accurate than the likes of Google et al.
The onus is upon the user. If you find an area of OSM that is not accurate, correct it. It normally takes about an hour for the changes to appear. Once you have mastered the mapping software, it could not be easier.
As others have said. TomTom, Glass Houses and Stones.
Edited -.Rewritten a wee bit. _________________ Garmin Nuvi 2599
Android with CamerAlert, OsmAnd+, Waze & TT Europe.
TomTom GO 730, GO 930, GO 940 & Rider2.
SatMap Active 10 & 20.
Joined: 15/07/2003 22:59:27 Posts: 1050 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject:
We all like free, and the idea of sharing is fun too
But I forget all about free, and it is definitely not fun when my map fails me on route to an important appointment, or in a rush to get home
Opensource does have its place, and it can co-exist in many areas and for many purposes
But for me, for navigation, I prefer to pay a little and get some reassurance that 99.9% of the time my nav will get me to my destination safely, the best route, and without stress
And without advertising (are you listening Garmin?)
Based on current offerings - and potential - I would say TomTom need not worry too much. Free sat-nav is the foot in the door for many, and people who find it useful WILL pay for better solutions. A little like that free sample in the post...
I guess it's all in the value-added data, not just the roads, and over and above anything else on the market this is where TT currently shine
TomTom are the masters of crowd sourced mapping technology (read: HD Traffic, IQ Routes) - they gather info from us, interpret it and give us advice feedback
They make money from it too - so it is sustainable
Collecting data is like collecting nonsense if it's not interpreted correctly, and this is where the value is
And no one, not ever, will do that for nothing! _________________ TomTom Go Live 6100, 600
Garmin DriveLux 50, D-Smart 70, NuviCam, 3598, 2699, 2798
Mio Navman 695
Nexus 6p, Apple iPhone 6sPlus and Microsoft Lumia 950xl running TomTom, Garmin, CoPilot, Navigon, Sygic, Here Drive, Google, Waze, MS Maps
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15257 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject:
Let's remember the aim of this news item. We are not saying that OSM is better for navigation than paid for maps (TomTom/TeleAtlas and Navteq).
The issue is the bold claims that TomTom have made saying that OSM is poor because it lacks some data and there are errors in it.
TomTom (and Navteq) maps certainly lack data and certainly have errors in them.
It seems quite a low level of attack for TomTom to come out with these statements when the vast majority of complaints about TomTom mapping, particularly in our forums, is just how long it takes for them to add new roads.
Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Tom Tom maps are poor
scrupps wrote:
The price of Tom Tom on an iPhone is extortionate - they will lose their business if they don't change their business model.
This is never going to appear in the iPhone 69p app categories though.
I got my iPhone Western Europe when it was £10 off so I think it cost me £49 or around there.
I have since had 3 free map updates since then, and the latest 1.10 included quite a raft of new features. That represents reasonable value to me? Plus I just could not live without Live Traffic now, its the best invention bar non when spending all day on our beloved motorway network. _________________ Samsung S22 Android, Google Maps & Camera Alert
I have just got GPS Navigation 2 by skobbler, which I understand is based on OSM. For £1.49 and £4.99 for the whole of Europe I was sceptical but it's better than my albeit old, Navman 510. I am sure for many, it will have flaws but for a basic, get you to your destination App, it's got to be worth a try? I'm very happy with it.
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