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Joined: Mar 21, 2007 Posts: 261 Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: Entire UK at 1:25 000 on one card?
Can someone brighter than me do the maths please? The next major firmware revision (1.4) promises SD card support up to 32Gb and the ability to handle huge map files by treating them in "handy bit-size" chunks, so what size card would the entire UK mainland at 1:25 000 fit onto?
Of course, even if it was technically possible, we'd need to be millionaires to be able to buy it, but it's good to have dreams....
Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Posts: 219 Location: Manchester UK
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Entire UK at 1:25 000 on one card?
lucevans wrote:
Can someone brighter than me do the maths please? The next major firmware revision (1.4) promises SD card support up to 32Gb and the ability to handle huge map files by treating them in "handy bit-size" chunks, so what size card would the entire UK mainland at 1:25 000 fit onto?
Of course, even if it was technically possible, we'd need to be millionaires to be able to buy it, but it's good to have dreams....
I notice you are enquiring on a National Lottery Night. Do you know something or just being hopeful.
Cost £13,000/ annum + VAT.........Size of data in .tif format 21 Gb.
OS suggest max scale as 1:8000 but at this scale it's normally c***py.
I would estimate the scale used by SatNavs is around 1:5000 _________________ HUAWEI P30 Pro (new edition) with Speedtrap Alert & alcatel1 for SatNav
CoPilot 10 with CamerAlert
RoadHawk in-car video
Reading glasses getting thicker as is my waist
Retired but want to go back to work for a rest.
Joined: Feb 23, 2005 Posts: 376 Location: Catford, London, UK
Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject:
Hi,
I don't have specific experience of the Satmap, but for Memory Map, the whole GB 1:50k map is about 3.5 GBytes and the 1:25k about 12 GBytes. Fugawi (and I suspect Garmin) seem to compress their map data rather more than MM, but I don't know about Satmap. So the whole GB in both 25k and 50k mapping might be a tight fit on a 16GB card, or might fit fairly comfortably.
Buying the whole GB 25k mapping "off the shelf" would probably cost far more than £3500, but I believe that was about the price quoted by MM as a special purchase. But if the maps are locked to device or card, do you really want to carry that amount of investment around in your pocket?
However, just because a device is able to read a 16 or 32GB card doesn't necessarily mean that the system will be usable in practice. I originally planned to put the whole MM GB 50k and aerial photos (also about 12GB) onto a 16GB card on my PPC, but the number and size of files made the start-up time of MM intolerable, so I had to satisfy myself with just the 50k whole-GB mapping.
Joined: Dec 11, 2006 Posts: 93 Location: Lincolnshire, England.
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:52 am Post subject:
The price was quoted to me by SatMap as "about £3.5k" after an idle query when I first bought my Active10.
It would be interesting to see if the unit would be useable with that much data to sort through. I certainly have no problems with the entire UK on 1:50k, and one could assume that at the higher scale of 1:25k (even with probably 4-times the amount of data) the screen update rate wouldn't be that demanding as it would primarily be used for hiking. Plenty of time for it to find each grid square...
If you used 1:25k for flying light aircraft, maybe?
PS: whole GB at 1:50k is 2.5GB on SatMap, divided into two north and south maps of roughly equal size. _________________ planet nine
Lincoln, UK.
Joined: Mar 21, 2007 Posts: 261 Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject:
Thanks for your thoughts folks. Am I right in assuming that if the full GB 1:50 is 2.5Gb, then the same area in 1:25 would be (2.5)^2, i.e. 6.25Gb? Or does the increase in detail on the 1:25 scale maps increase this?
Unfortunately, I have not yet won the lottery, so this is just idle speculation for me too!
Joined: Feb 23, 2005 Posts: 376 Location: Catford, London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject:
Hi,
No, I'd expect the 25k map files to total nearer 10 GBytes for Satmap.
I presume Satmap and MM use the same raw OS data, which is 400 pixels/km for the 25k maps and 200 pixels/km for the 50k. So a 1km square will contain 160k pixels against 40k pixels, or four times as many.
However, the map file data is compressed and I don't think the 25k maps contain quite as much as four times more detail (so they can be compressed slightly more). As a simple example the 25k only contains the same 1km grid of blue lines as the 50k. Thus in a simple test I tried, a sample 10km-sided square produced a 1.6MB tile file from 50k mapping and a 5.6MB (not 6.4MB) from the same area of 25k mapping.
Well, in an act of reckless budgetary abandonment, I've gone and done this very thing - i.e. procured a card with 1:25K Whole GB on it, toggleable with the 1:50K Whole GB and the A-Z maps too!
13GB of the 32GB card remain unused, with all that on it, although the actual file sizes come to about 17GB. The A10 now takes nearly two minutes to read the card on start-up or after insertion, compared with about 20 seconds for the 1:50K Whole GB map on its own - haven't yet established what the read time is when coming out of Hibernate Mode (Update: it's instantaneous), but two minutes when first turning on isn't a big deal, as it doesn't seem to affect the satellite lock time.
Everyday operations like panning around the maps and zooming in/out or toggling between scales don't seem to be much slower than with the 1:50K Whole GB map on its own - perhaps fractionally slower, but not especially noticeable and the memory usage doesn't seem to be higher with such a big card in the device.
Not really sure if there's a detrimental effect on battery life yet, as haven't done any comparative extended use activity, but I did leave it on continuously and do a fair bit of zooming/panning around and switching scales in the course of the day and got about 16 hours I think out of the Li-Pol battery, possibly a bit more (Always On; Screen off 3 mins; Normal Power Saving Mode; Backlight 60%).
Unsurprisingly, having all this on one card is very nice indeed - our 1:25K mapping in Britain is excellent, of course, and knowing that it's all there for you without switching cards all the time is marvellous. Naturally, no one is allowed to come within a 100m radius of the A10 without me deploying a crack security team; so - it's very expensive, but the combined cost of all that mapping was lower than the lowest figure guessed so far for the full 1:25K map in this thread.
Satmap have been helpful and accommodating, and good enough to agree to coming up with an alternative solution on so much mapping if the enormous size on one card compromises performance too much. At the moment, it's looking hopeful, although as I say I haven't really been able to properly assess the effect on battery life yet.
Now to look into insuring the blighter......
Last edited by Foghat on Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Mar 21, 2007 Posts: 261 Location: Cambridgeshire, UK
Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:57 am Post subject:
Nice, Foghat
You're not a Royal Navy or Royal Air Force rescue crew member, are you?! I can imagine having the entire UK in 1:25 000 to hand instantly being pretty useful in that situation....(helicopter scrambled...don't know exactly where you're going...no time to grab a handful of SD cards in the hope that one of them is of the right area...etc.)
Don't forget to glue the SD card cover closed on your A10 now- wouldn't want the card to fall out on the hillside somewhere (unless I'm walking behind you )
Despite the (presumably) high cost of this card, I think Satmap would probably sell a few, were they to offer it as an official product, especially if they could offer a "trade-in" of customers' existing mapcards to discount the price. Are you able/willing to tell us the cost?
Last edited by lucevans on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Entire UK at 1:25 000 on one card?
lucevans wrote:
Can someone brighter than me do the maths please? The next major firmware revision (1.4) promises SD card support up to 32Gb and the ability to handle huge map files by treating them in "handy bit-size" chunks, so what size card would the entire UK mainland at 1:25 000 fit onto?
Of course, even if it was technically possible, we'd need to be millionaires to be able to buy it, but it's good to have dreams....
I can see only one reason why one would want to carry the entire map of the UK on their GPS.. They want to walk it in one go! Spending thousands of pounds on mapping of an area you wont be walking on is ridiculous.
Your nav unit would very likely have problems loading so much data.. until current firmawres change, its not practical. Secondly, even if you could afford the enormous cost, how often would you actually use it.. i.e what is the maximum length of any one walk before you have to stop?
For me, I use a Garmin Oregon550T.. I download the 1:25k mapping only for the area I'm walking. As most of my walks are (more or less) circular, I can get away quite easily with the Garmins limitation of it Custom mapping to 100 map sectors. However because of this limitation (and because I don't have a million quid for UK wide 1:25k mapping) I'm now seriosly considering one of those tiny laptops/notebooks (£300) which will carry all the 1:25K mapping I need and load these as I go. Spending £300 on a 10" laptop is a far better deal than spending a million quid for the entire UK 1:25k map. Plus you have an extra computer on hand. These new laptops' have extensive battery life and they are tiny! I didn't notice it in my 35L rucksack when I tried one for size!! _________________ Visit my Walking Blog: http://jswalks.blogspot.com/
Visit my Tech Blog: http://jtech2010.blogspot.com/
Actually, Satmap have been/are looking at this very idea of offering the whole of the UK on one card, (1:25) Overall, it would be a lot cheaper than individual maps.....I would be able to order,say, just the whole of SE England from the overall offering.
Actually, Satmap have been/are looking at this very idea of offering the whole of the UK on one card, (1:25) Overall, it would be a lot cheaper than individual maps.....I would be able to order,say, just the whole of SE England from the overall offering.
SatMap wouldnt be able to do it unless there is massive subsidy for them by Ordenance Survey. The cost of that amount of mapping @ that detail is massive. OS would lose way too much money on their online sales overall.
It aint gonna happen flyer, but if it does then there is one ground-breaking deal going on with OS and its retailers. _________________ Visit my Walking Blog: http://jswalks.blogspot.com/
Visit my Tech Blog: http://jtech2010.blogspot.com/
Joined: Feb 23, 2005 Posts: 376 Location: Catford, London, UK
Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:22 am Post subject:
Jay1967 wrote:
It aint gonna happen ....
Jay1967,
Have you actually read Foghat's post above? He's already bought the whole UK at 1:25k on a Satmap card. The price is/was probably a "few" (i.e. more than one) thousand Pounds.
OS 1:25k mapping is available for download from most mapping suppliers now, although it obviously makes sense to ask for a "bulk price" if you want a large area. For example, from Memory Map the price for all GB is £2500 as MM support said in this thrread. That price allows the mapping to be installed on at least one PC and a (Windows) "mobile device". It's not enormously less than the price of all the corresponding Explorer maps in paper form (say 450 maps discounted at £6 each). The 1:50k Landranger mapping sells at nearer 10% of the cost of paper maps.
Have you actually read Foghat's post above? He's already bought the whole UK at 1:25k on a Satmap card. The price is/was probably a "few" (i.e. more than one) thousand Pounds.
OS 1:25k mapping is available for download from most mapping suppliers now, although it obviously makes sense to ask for a "bulk price" if you want a large area. For example, from Memory Map the price for all GB is £2500 as MM support said in this thrread. That price allows the mapping to be installed on at least one PC and a (Windows) "mobile device". It's not enormously less than the price of all the corresponding Explorer maps in paper form (say 450 maps discounted at £6 each). The 1:50k Landranger mapping sells at nearer 10% of the cost of paper maps.
Cheers, Alan.
AllyCat,
Yes I did but its blatantly obvious that you've completely missed the point on mine.
So, you going to spend £1000's on mapping? NO! and 99.9% people wont as the average punter cant afford it! The point is that the product 1:25K cannot be brought into the same price domain as say the 1:50K mapping, which can be bought for a mere £180! Getting the entire Uk @ 25k for say 3-400 would still be within the range of what people are already spending on this navigation equipment at this level, but we're not talking of just a few hundred pounds here.. you'll notice Foghat's didnt mention anything about price, but I can assure you, its going to be well outside the aforementioned price band.
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