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Tcat Occasional Visitor
Joined: Dec 06, 2008 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: Route Puzzle |
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Posted this in the handheld forum by mistake.
Hi I wonder if someone can shed light on why my 730 insists on including a ferry (train ride really) at a place called Brig - Iselle Switzerland on a route from Dunkerque in France to Stresa on Lake Maggiore Italy.
Google earth and Via Michelin give a much better route. When TomTom askes me about taking ferries I say no but it says there is not a route without a ferry. TomTom route planner also gives the same route. Looks like I need to plan my journey using itinerary planning. My TT maps are around two years old.
Just curious if anyone else sees this. |
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dhn Frequent Visitor
Joined: Oct 08, 2007 Posts: 2544 Location: Toronto CANADA
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if your maps are 2 years old, they don't have IQ routing implemented. That could be part of the problem. Besides the 'avoid ferry' restriction, what other(s) do you have checked in Planning Prefs? _________________ David |
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Tcat Occasional Visitor
Joined: Dec 06, 2008 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your reply David I have Always plan fastest route checked, ask me when there are HOV lanes on my route and avoid unpaved roads.
Terry |
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theripper Pocket GPS Verifier
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 581 Location: Medway Towns, Kent
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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It could be that TT thinks the ferry route is quicker than the road route(is it?). It could be a bit like Brixham-Dartmouth |
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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theripper wrote: | It could be that TT thinks the ferry route is quicker than the road route(is it?). |
But TCat says:
Tcat wrote: | When TomTom asks me about taking ferries I say no but it says there is not a route without a ferry. |
Anyway, I just tried it on a 940 with v840 maps - asking for "fastest route" - and it has found a direct overland route from Dunkerque in France to Stresa in Italy.
However the TT didn't recognise the name "Brig-Iselle" in Switzerland at all. Google maps places it at around the same place as the TomTom's "Brig-Glis" but that is MILES away from the calculated route.
Does this picture make any sense:
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Tcat Occasional Visitor
Joined: Dec 06, 2008 Posts: 5
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Andy makes sense if you use the TT route planner here http://www.routes.tomtom.com/t/#/ you will see the route I get from my TT730. Brig-Isselle seems to be the tunnel terminal. I am going to follow Via Michelin Routes Michelin time = 10.56hrs TT 10.34 not much in it but the Michelin route is a lot less expensive.
Thanks all for your help |
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GerryC Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Mar 01, 2005 Posts: 1513 Location: West Mids
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I see what you mean on the TT route planner. Do you know what this "ferry" is? If it's a train then I expect it's a similar situation to the Channel Tunnel which is an available route for cars.
For info, it starts at Brig-Glis and goes SE for 21km.
I would have thought it should bypass it when you ask not to use ferries though - but this not be marked as a "ferry" even though that's what it's called on the map. One way round that I can think of is to put a POI or favourite on the line and then choose to "avoid" it to find another route.
Just a thought, what have you set for tolled roads?
EDIT: Andy, were you calculating using a LIVE route. It's just that both ends of the tunnel show a traffic "incident" of "Reopened" at the moment. Did you route round a closed tunnel? _________________ Gerry
TomTom730T
Cameralert for Android
Brodit ProClip mount |
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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GerryC wrote: |
EDIT: Andy, were you calculating using a LIVE route. It's just that both ends of the tunnel show a traffic "incident" of "Reopened" at the moment. Did you route round a closed tunnel? |
Nope, I've got no LIVE Services on the 940 at the moment.... |
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rfp2001 Lifetime Member
Joined: Mar 28, 2006 Posts: 134
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Brig-Iselle is not a place but the car train from Brig, in Switzerland, to Iselle in Italy. Saves a drive over the alps. Does this help? |
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Tcat Occasional Visitor
Joined: Dec 06, 2008 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Big thanks to all for your help.
Since I will have a caravan attached to the rear of the car I did not want to have the expense of boarding a train. I have since removed all my TT settings and reverted to factory settings and like magic, I have now got a decent route which follows the ViaMichelin route very closely using toll roads and motorways, not sure which setting was causing the problem.
It is also a pity that TT's web site route planning does not allow preferences to be specified similar to ViaMichelin, or does it? may be I am not looking in the right places.
Again thanks all
Terry |
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Orac1 Banned
Joined: Apr 02, 2010 Posts: 38
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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All current TomTom Satnavs make a false assumption regarding ferry crossings that renders their route planning completely useless on routes that would involve a ferry crossing (be it a car on a ferry boat or a car on a railway train service).
That false assumption is that your vehicle can drive immediately on to the ferry which it expects to be waiting at the terminal without you even encountering the 15 minutes or so for loading and departing involved if you happened to turn up when the next rail ferry or boat ferry was soon about to leave.
So plan any route from London down to Studland in Dorset on a sunny summer weekend and TomTom cheerfully always assumes it can drive straight on the ferry at Sandbanks and makes no allowance for the 50 minute wait to board a ferry that you may typically encounter on a busy day. So hence it takes you through Bournemouth and on the Sandbanks ferry instead of taking the actually quicker but significantly longer route via Wareham and Corfe Castle.
Similarly if you plan any route from the UK to Mallorca a TomTom Satnav (even an HD traffic capable one which has no excuse as it can connect to the ferry operator to search for the next ferry time) will assume that you can cross immediately to the island from Barcelona the moment you arrive there by the lesser used and more infrequent ferry service to Alcudia, even though the journey on that ferry is over 7 hours long. TomTom makes no allowance at all for the fact that your next ferry may not leave for another 23 hours after you get to Barcelona or for the fact that faster ferries taking only 3.5 hours cross between Barcelona and Palma (the capital of Mallorca) usually every 12 hours.
In short allowing for the existence of the mobile data connection on a TomTom Live unit the assumptions made about ferries and their availability are utterly and shockingly incorrect. Most disturbingly for a journey to Mallorca is that even if you want to go to Palma in Mallorca (the capital) the TomTom still tries to take you on the ferry to Alcudia, some 50 miles and one hour across the island from Palma on the other side of the island.
If your journey involves a ferry you will need to access the timetables yourself and add your own estimate of when the next ferry leaves on to TomTom's simple journey time using the boat or train ferry that makes no such allowance at all for the ferry timetable and when the next ferry actually leaves. |
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mikealder Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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The Live services don't connect to the ferry operators so the device is "blind" to the times they operate at, the same applies to the channel Tunnel.
In theory such a connection could be possible, but for now the device is really only offering driving time + ferry crossing time, it does assume a direct drive straight on to the boat which would then set of immediately, it does the same for all ports though so any delay due to waiting for departure is pot luck unless you know the ferry times prior to setting off to the port.
I can't see TomTom bothering adding real time ferry information via the Live service though to be honest as it would only be of use to a very small percentage of device owners a few times a year, in contrast the current Google search and HD Traffic are used daily by a high percentage of Live device owners - Mike |
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Orac1 Banned
Joined: Apr 02, 2010 Posts: 38
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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mikealder wrote: | I can't see TomTom bothering adding real time ferry information via the Live service though to be honest as it would only be of use to a very small percentage of device owners a few times a year, in contrast the current Google search and HD Traffic are used daily by a high percentage of Live device owners - Mike |
If TomTom find it far too much trouble to add new roundabouts on major A roads that appeared three or four years ago or to delete a Shell petrol station in Slough in its database that became a Texaco petrol station more than 5 years ago (they also list the Texaco petrol station too) then I'm sure anything is possible.
But equally I would expect that a company with so little ambition to do things properly would soon be overtaken by a more proactive company like Google who knows that staying at the leading edge involved giving customers what they actually want and not assuming that customers will have to put up with your service no matter how deficient it may actually be.
I really don't see why interfacing with ferry timetables should be so difficult when practically all the main ferry operators worldwide now have their schedules connected to the internet. |
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Anita Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Mar 15, 2006 Posts: 3219 Location: Windlesham, Surrey
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Orac1 wrote: | But equally I would expect that a company with so little ambition to do things properly would soon be overtaken by a more proactive company like Google who knows that staying at the leading edge involved giving customers what they actually want and not assuming that customers will have to put up with your service no matter how deficient it may actually be. |
As far as I can see Google Maps gives the same route as you complain about here
Quote: | Similarly if you plan any route from the UK to Mallorca a TomTom Satnav (even an HD traffic capable one which has no excuse as it can connect to the ferry operator to search for the next ferry time) will assume that you can cross immediately to the island from Barcelona the moment you arrive there by the lesser used and more infrequent ferry service to Alcudia, even though the journey on that ferry is over 7 hours long. TomTom makes no allowance at all for the fact that your next ferry may not leave for another 23 hours after you get to Barcelona or for the fact that faster ferries taking only 3.5 hours cross between Barcelona and Palma (the capital of Mallorca) usually every 12 hours. |
And for the London to Studland journey my 720 warns me that the journey involves a ferry and asks if I want to avoid ferries. If I say "Yes" I'm given a route via Wareham.
I think most people would find it quite reasonable to check the ferries themselves, and plan their route dependent upon the times and costs involved. _________________ Anita
TomTom VIA 135 - App 12.075
UK map 1130.12368
Samsung Galaxy S21 |
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Orac1 Banned
Joined: Apr 02, 2010 Posts: 38
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Anita wrote: | And for the London to Studland journey my 720 warns me that the journey involves a ferry and asks if I want to avoid ferries. If I say "Yes" I'm given a route via Wareham. |
But your decision to avoid it would normally tend to be based on the fact that using the ferry involves a higher cost rather than because you knew the non ferry route was also quicker.
Also a long but stationary queue for the Studland ferry is a traffic queue so one would hope that TomTom would factor it in but I have a nasty feeling that the TomTom HD Traffic algorithm is still currently rather bad at factoring in this kind of queue.
I assume you would also therefore think that it is completely unreasonable of me to expect TomTom Fuel prices to actually work and hence perfectly sensible for me to instead ring round all the garages it lists checking their prices manually instead? This despite the fact that TomTom have advertised this service as existing and I have paid for it on the basis that it is capable of delivering it in the same accurate and timely way as www.petrolprices.com have always managed to. |
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