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Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15330 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:26 am Post subject:
gem wrote:
Wazza_G wrote:
Please get your facts correct. Speed doesn't kill........unless of course you want to talk about G-force.
Stop being argumentative.
Else we could type here all day that the bullet didn't kill the person. It was the hole in their body.
technically it would be the loss of blood and potential damage to internal organs...
but yes, i agree, can we try keep this on topic. when people say 'speed kills' we KNOW what they mean. no use getting caught up in silly arguments about how things are phrased.
Speed does kill, but only if the moving object hits something - you can survive a drop of 10,000 feet but it's the sudden stop at the end that does the damage!
I remember a case about 5 years ago in Shropshire where a copper took out the new high performance Volvo patrol car and was filmed (on the video system fitted to the car Dohhhh!!!!) doing 180mph on the M54, and 80mph in a 30mph limit - walked away with a slap on the wrist after claiming 'he had to try out the car' - even after public outcry and a retrial I don't think much happened to him. If you enforce the law you should have to obey the law - period.
Joined: Jan 10, 2004 Posts: 2777 Location: Bonnie Scotland (West Central)
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:35 am Post subject:
culzean wrote:
I remember a case about 5 years ago in Shropshire where a copper took out the new high performance Volvo patrol car and was filmed (on the video system fitted to the car Dohhhh!!!!) doing 180mph on the M54, and 80mph in a 30mph limit - walked away with a slap on the wrist after claiming 'he had to try out the car' - even after public outcry and a retrial I don't think much happened to him. If you enforce the law you should have to obey the law - period.
I expect Darren will be able give us more info about driver training and "illegal" speed, but I'd much rather that when a driver has to do 180 on the M54, or 80 in a 30, that wasn't the first time that they had driven at those speeds. Short of building a new city, just for driver training (a test track just isn't going to be "real" enough), training has to be done on the real road. I don't know enough about the case you mention to comment properly, but you mention "Volvo patrol car" so I presume it wasn't unmarked. Was he using blues&twos? _________________ Jock
TomTom Go 940 LIVE (9.510, Europe v915.5074 on SD & 8.371, WCE v875.3613 on board)
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:47 am Post subject:
Quote:
Short of building a new city, just for driver training (a test track just isn't going to be "real" enough), training has to be done on the real road.
As I understand such training (especially initial), you're supposed to have a trainer with you, not do it unsupervised. I didn't see any mention of this driver being 'trained'? And surely no training would take place at 80mph through a 30mph-limit residential area! Most high speed training would surely be carried out on private land (how about race tracks?) to establish good control, with a limited amount of final 'reality' training on the public road?
As you say, Darren can probably throw some light - but surely no light is needed on this case just irresponsible/dangerous behaviour of the sort that would get us lesser mortals banned for years. _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360)
The Crown Prosecution Service determined that a prosecution was appropriate.
The magistrate expressed concern at West Mercia Constabulary's "total lack of policy" on when and where police drivers should practise driving at very high speeds.
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Rospa) said: "Police are governed by health and safety laws just the same as any other employer. We don't believe 159mph can ever be justified on public roads."
Joined: May 03, 2006 Posts: 11 Location: East Anglia UK
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: Now here's a whacky idea
In the same way as it it is necessary to display the number plate of the trailer you are towing (if only a good many people did . ) why not have a fitted pouch on the fron and rear of motorcycle helmets, in which you have to insert a 'regulation' number plate, of the bike you are riding. Of course it would be scaled down from a standard one, but then all riders would safely display their plates and be accountable for their speed and actions.
It really is about time that this loophole was closed. I have been overtaken at huge speed by bikes when passing specs cameras and front facing speed cameras, and have to admit to a feeling of unfairness.
That said... I do know that most bikers are responsible and that it really is as always, the minority that get noticed... and cause the inevitable havoc.
Nick
'The court heard the roads on which PC Milton drove were deserted at the time of the patrol and that driving conditions were good'.
Just try using that excuse if you are caught doing even 10mph over the limit by the police or unforgiving 24/7 speed camera!!!!
How many times have we seen cases of people killed by police cars speeding and losing control?
I used to work in an office in a small town overlooking the main road, several times a week (nearly every week) we would hear police siren and look out to see a couple of police 'flat caps' sitting in the back of police car with the driver using his 'blues and two's' to get through traffic - don't tell me that they were on an emergency call - a clear case of police (mis)using their 'powers' to avoid getting caught up in traffic.
Joined: Jan 10, 2004 Posts: 2777 Location: Bonnie Scotland (West Central)
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:44 am Post subject:
culzean wrote:
'The court heard the roads on which PC Milton drove were deserted at the time of the patrol and that driving conditions were good'.
Just try using that excuse if you are caught doing even 10mph over the limit by the police
At 10 MPH over the limit in a 30 I'd expect to be fined, but at 10MPH over in a 70, on deserted roads in good driving conditions, where I wasn't causing danger to myself or other road users, I wouldn't even expect to be stopped for an ear warming, never mind fined.
culzean wrote:
or unforgiving 24/7 speed camera!!!!
Unlikely to get off with it. And the process of trying would put you off and make you pay the fine. _________________ Jock
TomTom Go 940 LIVE (9.510, Europe v915.5074 on SD & 8.371, WCE v875.3613 on board)
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: Road user discrimination?
First post, please be gentle!
Going back to the original theme, I've often wondered if the increase of SPECs and forward facing (unmanned) cameras is creating road user discrimination against non bike users.
I'm not against curbing excessive speed, but is it fair that not all road users are 'treated' the same? Unless there is something to make a motor cyclist stand out for later identification (as already described), the motor bike will be exempt from prosecution.
Has anyone ever considered a legal/European challenge on this issue based on unfair discrimination by road user type?
Joined: May 03, 2006 Posts: 11 Location: East Anglia UK
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: Glad we got back to the original theme
Yes I totally agree.
Although I didn't expect tpo be taken seriosly about mini number plates on helmets, it shows That I am not alone in feeling that without something, it is a speeders charter for motorcyclist as things are now...and they not only know it, but take advantage of it.
Speed and anonymity also seem to encourage highly dangerous UNDERtaking on all roads but particularly motorways (is M25 the worst?). I have even had my neaside mirror smashed off by that behaviour; the biker was going so fast I couldn't even get his number.
Joined: Aug 22, 2007 Posts: 211 Location: Peterborough
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Glad we got back to the original theme
nickjwhite wrote:
I have even had my neaside mirror smashed off by that behaviour; the biker was going so fast I couldn't even get his number.
And they wonder why so many bikers are killed.
We don't really wonder Nick - we know why many are killed.
It's a fact that collisions between cars and bikes constitute nearly 50% of all bike accidents.
80% of those collisions are caused by inattentive car drivers, i.e. the car driver is the offending party, usually violating the bikers right-of-way.
The most effective way to reduce fatalities and injuries resulting from collisions between cars and bikes is to emphasize driver awareness.
You may have seen road signs saying 'Think Bike' - they are for car drivers to read.
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Glad we got back to the original theme
Snudge wrote:
80% of those collisions are caused by inattentive car drivers, i.e. the car driver is the offending party, usually violating the bikers right-of-way.
Then knowing this, bikers should take precautions against us idiot, sorry, inattentive car drivers who don't see them coming at 80mph in a 30 zone because they have not bothered to try to catch our attention by the simple expedient of switching their lights on. Who are the huge yellow (or is it orange) ugly intrusive signs 'BENDS DEAD AHEAD' with a picture of a M/C on them springing up all over the place aimed at then, invalid carriage drivers? or are they to perhaps to warn speeding M/Cyclists that they might slow down a bit because of the bends.
All of my friends who have bikes have had an accident of one kind or another. All but one of them crashed due to car driver error. They didn't crash because they were doing 80mph in a 30mph area nor because they had been doing wheelies and burnouts, nor because they were undertaking. They were knocked off because car drivers have just not paid enough attention to the road or had filled their diesel tanks to the full causing it to spill out on the next bend or had got bored sitting in traffic and decided to do a "U" Turn.
Idiot bikers do exist, but as a car driver also, I notice more bad car drivers than bad motorbike riders.
The one time I was knocked off was when I was in a parking bay, sitting astride my motorbike taking off my helmet and gloves. A car driver tried to parallel park in the adjoining bay, missed and crashed into me. I was stationary, he couldn't park! I can laugh about it now, but it could have been fatal - Well, for me anyway!
I know of only one accident amongst my circle of friends-of-friends which is attributable to biker error. He was within the speed limit but failed to spot some black ice. He died, his pillion had to have her leg amputated. Having an accident on a bike is a dangerous thing - We do take safety very seriously indeed, trust me.
I believe that obtaining a car licence should include Compulsory Bike Training followed by a period of at least 6 months of motorbike riding. It is not until you have to negotiate other traffic when on two wheels yourself, that you fully appreciate how difficult it is to remain safe on the roads when it seems that everybody else just wants to run you over and do you harm, however unintentionally.
I'm not trying to make this a Car v Bike thing. I love riding my bike but sometimes I think it is just not worth having to ride for everybody else on the road. It can be very exhausting work.
Regards, AliOnHols.
P.S. I'd prefer Gatso's to be fitted with heat seeking missiles rather than have to fit number plates to my £450 crash helmet.
P.P.S. SORRY for the following HUGE generalisation - but In my opinion, and as bizarre as this may sound, French and Spanish car drivers are way ahead of British drivers when it come to bike awareness. Possibly because more started on a moped, I don't know. Utter loons on the road otherwise, but they do respect a motorbike as another road user which has an equal right to be there.
EDIT - Some spelling corrected. _________________ Garmin Nuvi 2599
Android with CamerAlert, OsmAnd+, Waze & TT Europe.
TomTom GO 730, GO 930, GO 940 & Rider2.
SatMap Active 10 & 20.
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just irresponsible/dangerous behaviour of the sort that would get us lesser mortals banned for years.
) why not have a fitted pouch on the fron and rear of motorcycle helmets, in which you have to insert a 'regulation' number plate, of the bike you are riding. Of course it would be scaled down from a standard one, but then all riders would safely display their plates and be accountable for their speed and actions.
