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Red Light Camera (Speed camera?)

 
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diamondgeezer1990
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Joined: Jul 22, 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Red Light Camera (Speed camera?) Reply with quote

Sorry for the newbie question but does the following red light camera measure speed as well as red light offences. Or does it depend on the camera?

http://www.roadsupervisors.net/images/zh.trafficlightcamera.jpg
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falkirk81
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I *believe* that is a standard red light only, no speed.

The speed camera red light cams i think are monitron like cameras now!
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BaggieBoy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is just a red light camera.
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geddit
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be carefull!
Many Red Light cameras are GATSOs with red light trip detectors under the white line. Quite a few of these are now being converted for use as speed detectors when the green light is on - hence the name 'Speed on Green' camera. PGPSW uses the 'Redspeed' terminology. The same camera will get you for crossing a red light or exceeding the speed limit when on green (ond I suspect also on Amber).
When converted to Speed on Green, they are usually painted yellow and speedcheck line painted on the roads. BUT they are not legally obliged to paint them! Luckily, most camera partnerships will publish where they are.
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geddit wrote:
Be carefull!
Many Red Light cameras are GATSOs with red light trip detectors under the white line. Quite a few of these are now being converted for use as speed detectors when the green light is on - hence the name 'Speed on Green' camera.

I think you've posted something very similar before? Do you have any links or further details about that?
As far as I'm aware the old Gatso type red light cameras *cannot* be converted to act as speed cameras too.
Quote:
PGPSW uses the 'Redspeed' terminology.

That is because the combined redlight and speed cameras which are digital and look like Monitrons are made by a company called "Redspeed"

Their website (http://www.redspeed-int.com/) claims:
Quote:
The only UK Home Office Type Approved Manufacturer of Digital Fixed Speed & Red Light Enforcement Equipment.

and
Quote:
RedSpeed International Ltd are to provide two 2 lane speed on green cameras to the City of Edinburgh.
Following confirmation of the order, Nathan Howard, Sales Manager for RedSpeed International said "we are delighted to be working with the safety camera patrnership to provide the new digital systems which we are confident will improve road safety."


and
Quote:

Following the news of RedSpeed systems being ordered in Scotland, RedSpeed has had another successful month in the UK. Orders for systems and services have been received from Rhondda Cynon-Taf, Manchester Camera Patrnership, Staffordshire County Council and Surrey County Council within the last month.



If you have any proof that I'm wrong, and the old-style film cameras can be converted, we'd love to hear it.
But I'd have thought a press report that says "cameras are being converted" would really be likely to just mean they are *replacing* the old cameras with the new type.
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dorsetbred
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks just like the two in Poole that went live recently, grey and potent!
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geddit
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy
Not sure what to call 'proof' - certainly, as dorsetbred says, Poole have just made 2 cameras 'speed on green'. It was not evident that they replaced anything (but they might have done). The red light cameras in the area all have standard gatso heads on them (and are labelled GATSO!).
As far as your note goes, I note that Redspeed are an approved DIGITAL red light and speed camera but I believe that the Gatso Red Light Camera Type 36 can do the same job, albeit with film. Next time I am in Bournemouth I will check what they have done to their 'speed on green' cameras in Poole, but I was not aware that they had erected genuine Redspeed ones.
Geddit
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that there is confusion between redspeed cams and the Redspeed manufacturer. Perhaps unfortunately, PGPSW decided some time ago to call redlight cams the also trap speed on green 'redspeed'. This should not be confused with the manufacturer 'Redspeed'. Any make of cam in the PGPSW database that doubles as a redlight and speed cam is called 'redspeed'
Similarly, fixed rear facing cams are called gatso regardless of the manufacturer. Ever heard of an Electrolux hoover, or a Parker biro? Very Happy
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geddit
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed - it does not really matter what they are called in the database, the issue that Andy and I are wrestling with is...
Can old style 'Gatso' red light cameras be 'converted' (ie not replaced) to act as speed cameras?
I would think this is important to you as verifiers, because I've heard the ones referred to by dorsetbred look no different to grey redlight cameras. Similarly, I have heard (but have no evidence) that the tell-tale white line markings may not always be present - other lines such as yellow box junction lines being used for the double check. Anyone working in the camera industry confirm how this works?
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rumani
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The red light cameras in the area all have standard gatso heads
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geddit wrote:
I believe that the Gatso Red Light Camera Type 36 can do the same job, albeit with film.


Sorry, I missed the significance of that line.
THIS WEBSITE, certainly seems to agree with you....

Quote:
Traffic Light Cameras
Gatsometer BV, manufacturer of the UK's Red Light Cameras, (named Gatso RLC 36) has been producing RLC's since 1966.

The RLC system is triggered by sensors or ground loops that are cut into road surface as a vehicle passes over them, while a red light is shown.

The Red Light Camera was originally used to measure red light offences. Nowadays the RLC can also be used in combination with speed measurement, similar to that of a Gatso Meter rear facing speed camera (radar type 24 technology) and can therefore also record the speed of the offending motorist as well. So you could end with a speeding offence as well as a traffic light offence, if you go through a red light camera!



However, I have found a copy of the Government "Type Approval" document for the RLC36, which ONLY approves it for red-light offences.
(see it HERE)
That's the only one I've found so far, but it's dated 1992, so may have been superceded since!

The "Safecam" website for the Somerset and Avon "safety partnership" also has a technical page which only refers to the Type 36 as being for fixed red-light detection

Call me pedantic, but I just wish we could find something specific about this on a manufacturers' website or in government literature (or recruit a camera installer to the forum!)
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More trawling through the internet....

The Surrey Camera Partnership website has these two interesting things to say:

Quote:
Red Light Camera Calibration Certificates

The Surrey Safety Camera Partnership has previously used up to four "Gatso" brand red light cameras that are moved from housing to housing from time to time.

More recently two of these have been upgraded for use as combined red light and speed cameras. Occasionally additional cameras may be hired to cover periods when other cameras are away for calibration. The Partnership also has one "Red Speed" brand red light camera. The calibration certificates can be downloaded below.

(my bold text)

The calibration certificates for both their normal red light cams and for the combined redlight-speed cameras can be viewed on-line using the links on the left of that page.

The Devon and Cornwall site says something very similar:
Quote:
Gatsometer BV, manufacturer of the UK's Red LightCameras, (named Gatso RLC 36) has been producing RLC's since 1966...... The Red Light Camera was originally used to measure red light offences. Nowadays the RLC can also be used in combination with speed measurement, similar to that of a Gatso Meter rear facing speed camera (radar type 24 technology) and can therefore also record the speed of the offending motorist as well.


Now the difference is beginning to get a bit esoteric, but I read that one to say there is the ability to record the speed the car was doing AS IT PASSED THE RED, but that's not the same as being able to be used as a stand-alone speed camera while the lights are on green. (I've seen several mentions for ordinary red-light installations that the camera is only "powered" when the red bulbs are on)

So.... it looks like I MIGHT have to humbly admit defeat on this one...
YOU CAN UPGRADE A "GATSO" BRAND REDLIGHT CAMERA TO REGISTER SPEED AS WELL.

But I still haven't found anything to say they do that when the lights are green!
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting letter from the HOME OFFICE to the Chair of the ACPO Road Policing Enforcement
Technology Committee about type approval and the admissibility in court of evidence from particular cameras.

The letter was primarily to confirm that annual callibration certificates aren't needed and it justifies that by saying that thay aren't specifically mentioned in the type approval certificate.

But that works both ways.... it doesn't mention anything about speed detection use of Gatso redlight cameras in the type approval document either!
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