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MikeB Frequent Visitor
Joined: 20/08/2002 11:51:57 Posts: 3859 Location: Essex, UK
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: Driver issued Redlight Ticket making way for 999 van |
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Reported the other day in the Tameside Advertiser is the story of a driver who moved into a Redlight controlled junction to allow a speeding 999 Police van to get through. A few days later he was stunned to find a NIP (Notice of Intent to Prosecute) drop through his letterbox. After requesting the photos of the infringement he says you can clearly see the Police Van passing him in the junction.
The driver when contesting the ticket says that the Central Ticket Office told him he should not have moved. Is this another case of Jobsworth? What would the guy have said if it the Police had been speeding to investigate a break-in at his house? There is clearly a case for common sense to prevail and this does not seem to have happened in this case.
The Tameside Advertiser report:
Taken from the Tameside Advertiser
999 call sparks red light row
August 05, 2009
A DRIVER who pulled forward at a red light to let a police van pass has been hit with a ticket – for jumping the light.
Phillip Lilley was waiting at traffic lights on Manchester Road, Droylsden, when he saw the van behind him with its sirens blaring heading from Ashton towards the crossroads.
On instinct, the 36-year-old edged forward so the police could get through.
But he was left stunned a few days later when he received a letter to say he had been caught on camera jumping the lights and was slapped with a £60 fine and three penalty points.
Phillip, a car mechanic, says he drives the same way up to eight times a day so knows the junction well.
He is now disputing the fine after requesting a copy of the picture, taken by the camera at the traffic lights, which shows his car and the police van as it passed him.
He said: "The guy in front of me pulled right out into the junction so I followed him. What am I supposed to do, just stay there and not move? I crossed the line 33 seconds after the lights turned to red, I was only doing 12 miles per hour and my brake lights were on. I asked for the picture the camera had taken and the police car is clearly in view but I spoke to the Central Ticket Office and they said I shouldn’t have moved."
Phillip, of Easton Road, Droylsden, is now concerned that drivers who moved out of the way with him will also have got tickets. He added: "They may not remember – how many sets of traffic lights do you go through in a day? Even if they do they may not request the picture and if they do the police car may not be visible. My concern is how many other people it’s happened to. If that’s standard practice then the next time I’m sitting at the traffic lights and an emergency vehicle comes, I’m not moving."
The fine came just days after Phillip had overturned a similar ticket issued when the lights were out of order. They were replaced by a temporary set but the cameras had been left on.
Greater Manchester Casualty Reduction Partnership would not comment on Phillip’s case but said emergency vehicle drivers were trained to manoeuvre around other cars.
Communications officer Karen Delaney said: "This happens all the time. If you are at red traffic lights you are putting yourself in danger if you go through them. You risk getting a ticket but if there is evidence that backs it up that you have manoeuvred on behalf of an emergency vehicle then we will look into it." _________________ Mike Barrett |
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bammbamm Occasional Visitor
Joined: Sep 02, 2006 Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: police a waste of time |
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This is just typical of the police all they are interested in, is doing drivers all the time and when it comes down to real policing they don't want to know and just fob you off with the same old rubbish. there is nothing we can do our hands are tied. so the moral of this story is if you see an ambulance or fire engine try and move out of the way. if you see the police stay where you are.
_________________ neil bayley |
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MaFt Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15257 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Driver issued Redlight Ticket making way for 999 van |
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News Team wrote: | Greater Manchester Casualty Reduction Partnership would not comment on Phillip’s case but said emergency vehicle drivers were trained to manoeuvre around other cars. |
that may be true, but if there's a row of cars blocking the entire carriageway coupled with the usual safety fences that you get near many redlight controlled junctions then how exactly do they get around then?
i'm sure it was only in the last year or so that there was a big tv ad campaign about moving out of the way of emergency vehicles... it even went into great detail about if there is no place to move over to keep driving forward until there is space!
ridiculous...!
MaFt |
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GerryC Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Mar 01, 2005 Posts: 1513 Location: West Mids
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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So this doesn't come under that catch-all rule about breaking road law that it's OK if you do it under the instruction of a Police Officer?
Of course, if you stay still, you'll get done for obstructing a officer from doing his duty etc. _________________ Gerry
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Privateer Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20 Posts: 4918 Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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If true, then it sounds a clear message to all drivers - Do not go through a red light at all, even to allow an emergency vehicle a route.
How can the police "do you" for obstructing them by not going through a red light when the Highway Code states that it is illegal to go pass a red traffic light?
If a police officer orders you to move then I guess that it is different. But you should always ask their permission to move (through the light) and also get their rank and id number.
Regards, _________________ Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
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7andy Regular Visitor
Joined: Jul 02, 2005 Posts: 74
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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...it is interesting to note that it is illegal to stop on the Queen's highway. It is this that gives an Officer of the Law the right to require you to move on.
It is also illegal to not stop at a red light, in direct contravention of the law above.
You pays your money and you takes your choice - you'll be damned whichever way you go! |
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rikesh123 Occasional Visitor
Joined: Oct 05, 2008 Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Privateer wrote: | How can the police "do you" for obstructing them by not going through a red light when the Highway Code states that it is illegal to go pass a red traffic light? |
Because that is the kind of people they are. Consider this: They go through red lights and park on double yellow lines every day. They are 'beyond the law'.
Privateer wrote: | ...you should always ask their permission to move (through the light) and also get their rank and id number. |
This is a ridiculous and impractical suggestion. You are also implying that if an ambulance or fire engine needs to get through (and in many cases, these are more urgent than police), then you shouldn't move for them because they can't 'authorise' it?
Where has the common sense gone? |
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GerryC Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Mar 01, 2005 Posts: 1513 Location: West Mids
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Devil's advocate time.
The only thing bugging me about the original article now is that he was going at "only 12mph". Now I've passed over red lines to get out of the way before but at not much more than walking pace because I was checking for pedestrians crossing the road. Even then I didn't really get to the junction as I crossed in front of the next lane across. _________________ Gerry
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Matt865 Regular Visitor
Joined: Dec 30, 2006 Posts: 92
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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The cruel and arbitrary nature of the faceless bureaucracy that make this country an increasingly infuriating place to live. Terry Gilliam's Brazil hit the nail on the head 24 years ago. If a bureaucratic points their finger, you are guilty. |
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The Rudd Regular Visitor
Joined: Apr 18, 2006 Posts: 121 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely disgarceful, I would have most likely done the same thing if I had been in that position.
Jerry |
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JimmyTheHand Frequent Visitor
Joined: Apr 16, 2005 Posts: 386
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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I recall at least one instance (probably more) of this in Honest John's column in The Telegraph Saturday's motoring supplement over the years
Sadly the answer is - don't cross the Red Light unless a Police Officer directs you to (and has stopped other traffic so as there is no danger) _________________ J. |
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Tom59 Lifetime Member
Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 407 Location: Alconbury - UK
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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You have all lost the point.
It's another £60.00 that they have made. Profit overrides common sense every time! _________________ TT Go 720 (T)
Firmware 9.430. Map: Western Europe V 875.3613
TT iPhone app
V 1.23 Map: Western and Central Europe 2 GB V 965.7286
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V 1.1 Map: Western Europe 965.7248 |
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ChristopherW Lifetime Member
Joined: Jan 24, 2008 Posts: 41
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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I had to similarly move out of the way of an ambulance with blues and twos on during one of my morning commutes.
This was along the Birmingham New Road (dual carriageway all the way), which - as all fellow Birmingham New Road users will know - is literally peppered with redlights and Gatsos. 30 in each direction in a 10 mile stretch (and the entire dual carriageway is 40mph!)
At the junction in question, we were stopped and there was a redlight camera. I was at the front of the queue in the offside lane and all of a sudden I see cars in my mirror pulling to the sides as much as they can. However, there's little room to manouevre as the lanes are narrow and I seem to be stopping everyone in the queue from being able to nudge up and move to the outside of the lane to let the ambulance through...
... so, I slowly crawled over the white line, and the ambulance made its way past. I think I was pretty much completely over the white line as the ambulance finally got past!
Fortunately, it seems that Common Sense and cluefulness took hold for once, and I never received a NIP in the post. However, the pendulum swings both ways and I'm currently watching the doormat with one eye just in case a NIP falls onto it one morning
(out of curiosity, does anybody know what the envelopes West Midlands police use for their NIPs look like?) |
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BigPerk Frequent Visitor
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, probably "guilty as charged" Highway Code says (219) Quote: | Emergency and Incident Support vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police, doctors or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights and sirens or flashing headlights, or Highways Agency Traffic Officer and Incident Support vehicles using flashing amber lights. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of such a vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass, while complying with all traffic signs. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but try to avoid stopping before the brow of a hill, a bend or narrow section of road. Do not endanger yourself, other road users or pedestrians and avoid mounting the kerb. Do not brake harshly on approach to a junction or roundabout, as a following vehicle may not have the same view as you. | (my bold type)
I have to say I would probably have felt under pressure to do the same as the offending driver, at least until I (just) read this. People sitting in charge offices after the event always have the advantage over those trying to act for the best under stress!
I don't know how mitigating a judge might consider the circumstances? _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360) |
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ChristopherW Lifetime Member
Joined: Jan 24, 2008 Posts: 41
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Shame really, isn't it. Hopefully if you went before the Magistrate and plead your case, they'd see sense and dismiss the charge against you. My boss is a JP and I'd expect him to most certainly make the logical (and clueful) choice and dismiss the charge on the grounds that performing your public duty by allowing an emergency vehicle to safely pass overrides all but the most essential of traffic laws!
As long as you didn't drive to the other side of the junction to let it past, I really can't see the problem with entering into the junction to make space. There's usually tons of space on all sides of the junction and I've never seen an accident involving people hitting cars on the other side of the carriageway while executing a turn across the carriageway... |
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