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Very sad to see the end of the monthly subscription as I used to just update occasionally and did not mind paying the £2. I do not use it enough to pay the £19 and just think this will encourage pirating of the database as when it was only £2 it was easiest to get it here but now there is a £19 saving by downloading elsewhere I feel a lot of people will put in the effort to look....
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:02 am Post subject:
I wish you luck, I'll be doing my damnedest to make sure anyone who thinks it's morally acceptable to steal our data doesn't get it easily and if they do they'll always be wondering if it can be relied upon.
if you can afford a car and a satnav then you can afford £19. For most people that is simple decision but there will always be those who have no issue with thieving. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:04 am Post subject:
tomo1340 wrote:
In my local area cameras rarely change, or appear or disappear, the notable exception is one mobile camera I submitted ages ago and (unless it is in the new issue) never appeared on the software, which did make me wonder if it was happening to other users.
Until someone else reports it what do you expect us to do? If we took every report of a mobile camera on face value the database would be overflowing with them! Have you seen it since that day?
Your report will have been recorded and will be awaiting verification. If it is subsequently verified then you'd have been eligible for a lifetime subscription if you held a valid subscription when you reported it. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:
tomo1340 wrote:
In my local area cameras rarely change, or appear or disappear
That's quite likely to be true, but one day you drive down a piece of road that you have driven a thousand times and you get flashed by a newly installed monitron. Bing, 3 points and 60 quid thank you very much.
They way I see it is speed cameras only have to be lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time to reuse an old phrase. _________________ Gone fishing!
Joined: Jan 04, 2006 Posts: 9323 Location: Durham, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject:
Quote:
That's quite likely to be true, but one day you drive down a piece of road that you have driven a thousand times and you get flashed by a newly installed monitron. Bing, 3 points and 60 quid thank you very much.
Exactly. 1 new one in 3 years and then 4 new ones within 2 miles of my house in 2 weeks.
In my local area cameras rarely change, or appear or disappear, the notable exception is one mobile camera I submitted ages ago and (unless it is in the new issue) never appeared on the software, which did make me wonder if it was happening to other users.
Until someone else reports it what do you expect us to do? If we took every report of a mobile camera on face value the database would be overflowing with them! Have you seen it since that day?
Your report will have been recorded and will be awaiting verification. If it is subsequently verified then you'd have been eligible for a lifetime subscription if you held a valid subscription when you reported it.
I assumed there was an unverified poi? there was something that looked like that on the data I downloaded, I may be rong though. Also I also thought you only got full membership if you spotted a new fixed camera. I have seen this camera at least twice a month since first reporting it, far more than I have seen any other mobile camera in my area. infact near me there used to be mobile cameras that were replaced with fixed cameras so now the database warns you about 4 cameras in the space of about 50 metres. Obviously its not your fault. it is just the way it is.
I actually found your post a bit aggressive, to the point where I am considering the point of posting here again. I have over the past few years enjoyed my time here, there have been some great people helping others and I have also been able to advise people where I can. I posted to express my opinion on the situation and I actually think I recommended people buy it if they needed it. I don't need it for my personal area as I already know where all the fixed cameras are and they announce on the radio every morning where the mobile cameras are going to be. Tie that into always trying to drive within the law and it adds up to in all my time driving in many countries in the world I have never been stopped for a driving offence or caught speeding. of course now I have jinxed myself I will get pulled over on the way to the shops.
As for nineteen quid not being a lot of money when you take into account you have bought a car and sat nav equipment, I don't think that realises the bigger picture. I have bought a new car this year and bought TT6, unfortunately my family income has dropped 60 percent overnight leaving me wondering if paying for the car is possible at all anyway, and as I previously stated the camera situation doesn't change dramatically here, and as pointed out new camera sites need verification before inclusion in the database which means I will be paying for a database that I already paid for last month in reality. If my situation were to change, or I suddenly needed to drive out of my immediate area then I would seriously reconsider buying the subscription, that being said I am less likely to bother getting an update when faced with 19 pounds. That's just my take on it and the decision that I have made for my own situation, that isn't me saying it is wrong for someone else's situation. _________________ o2 XDA Stellar
TTN6
MOWE
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject:
tomo1340 wrote:
Also I also thought you only got full membership if you spotted a new fixed camera. I have seen this camera at least twice a month since first reporting it, far more than I have seen any other mobile camera in my area. infact near me there used to be mobile cameras that were replaced with fixed cameras so now the database warns you about 4 cameras in the space of about 50 metres. Obviously its not your fault. it is just the way it is.
We expanded the lifetime subscription criteria back in July to include mobiles (pending verification) and amendments to existing cameras such as speed and or type corrections. This has greatly increased the opportunity to qualify.
Quote:
I actually found your post a bit aggressive, to the point where I am considering the point of posting here again.
Then please accept my apologies, the continual griping by a small minority and the comments that suggest using a pirated version is now acceptable incense me. I took issue with our suggestion that we were ignoring your report for some reason but your comment did not deserve such a reply. if you are willing to take the time to email me details of your submission I can investigate and give you an answer on the status of your report.
Quote:
I don't need it for my personal area as I already know where all the fixed cameras are and they announce on the radio every morning where the mobile cameras are going to be.
It takes but a momentary lack of attention to be caught and you are as likely to be caught within a mile of your home as anywhere else but you are entitled to choose as you wish of course.
Quote:
As for nineteen quid not being a lot of money when you take into account you have bought a car and sat nav equipment, I don't think that realises the bigger picture. I have bought a new car this year and bought TT6, unfortunately my family income has dropped 60 percent overnight leaving me wondering if paying for the car is possible at all anyway.
Which is a different matter but doesn't change my view that if you can afford to drive and spend £200 on a satnav then £19.00 is a drop in the ocean. At the end of the day if you think it is worth having you'll pay for it, if you don't then you will either manage without or will take your chance with pirated versions.
I'd love to have kept the £2/month option but the thieves have dictated otherwise, a real shame but if we had not acted then it would have risked the long term viability of the service. _________________ Darren Griffin
Also I also thought you only got full membership if you spotted a new fixed camera. I have seen this camera at least twice a month since first reporting it, far more than I have seen any other mobile camera in my area. infact near me there used to be mobile cameras that were replaced with fixed cameras so now the database warns you about 4 cameras in the space of about 50 metres. Obviously its not your fault. it is just the way it is.
We expanded the lifetime subscription criteria back in July to include mobiles (pending verification) and amendments to existing cameras such as speed and or type corrections. This has greatly increased the opportunity to qualify.
Quote:
I actually found your post a bit aggressive, to the point where I am considering the point of posting here again.
Then please accept my apologies, the continual griping by a small minority and the comments that suggest using a pirated version is now acceptable incense me. I took issue with our suggestion that we were ignoring your report for some reason but your comment did not deserve such a reply. if you are willing to take the time to email me details of your submission I can investigate and give you an answer on the status of your report.
Quote:
I don't need it for my personal area as I already know where all the fixed cameras are and they announce on the radio every morning where the mobile cameras are going to be.
It takes but a momentary lack of attention to be caught and you are as likely to be caught within a mile of your home as anywhere else but you are entitled to choose as you wish of course.
Quote:
As for nineteen quid not being a lot of money when you take into account you have bought a car and sat nav equipment, I don't think that realises the bigger picture. I have bought a new car this year and bought TT6, unfortunately my family income has dropped 60 percent overnight leaving me wondering if paying for the car is possible at all anyway.
Which is a different matter but doesn't change my view that if you can afford to drive and spend £200 on a satnav then £19.00 is a drop in the ocean. At the end of the day if you think it is worth having you'll pay for it, if you don't then you will either manage without or will take your chance with pirated versions.
I'd love to have kept the £2/month option but the thieves have dictated otherwise, a real shame but if we had not acted then it would have risked the long term viability of the service.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I was in no way suggesting obtaining your database by theft. I paid for the database when I needed it and it was certainly worth the £2 I paid. Paying £19 a year is a bargain for it no question about it, as long as you get the use out of it.
I remember a guy showing me his tomtom in a pub and he was very happy to show me his speed camera database which was the PGPSW database but renamed. He bought it off a genuine internet seller and it came bundled with the software, he had no idea who PGPSW were. So I think a major problem is companies ripping your data off and 'reselling' it too.
I will fire tom tom up and email you the details of the camera. It might be in the new version as my subscription has just expired and I am not sure which issue I have, or when a new one is due. _________________ o2 XDA Stellar
TTN6
MOWE
I remember a guy showing me his tomtom in a pub and he was very happy to show me his speed camera database which was the PGPSW database but renamed. He bought it off a genuine internet seller and it came bundled with the software, he had no idea who PGPSW were. So I think a major problem is companies ripping your data off and 'reselling' it too.
I suspect this is quite common and not just TTs. Cotswold BMW were happy to preload a camera database on a Nuvi 310 but I am not sure who's database it was. The Nuvi didnt do TMC (a known issue in the UK) so I left it and bought the TT. You are right though in saying some internet sellers will bundle the hardware with cameras.
Joined: 12/03/2003 18:19:15 Posts: 136 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: IPR ?
If I submit a camera to PGPSW, and also to another database, who owns the IPR?, surely me, as I identified it and I can submit it to whom I like? IS every item in the PGPSW database recorded against individuals, or PGPSW?
Are the databases somehow keyed (MD5?) to each user?
I'm sure i asked this before, but didn't get an answer _________________ Mr.G
Are others also finding the debate on cost of subscription fascinating.
One area that is importance to us all, is that we drive some form of motor vehicle or bike and enjoy the benefits such vehicles offer each of us in our daily lives.
Foe those without company vehicles, we have to fill these vehicles with fuel, plus absorb the running costs, and with fuel being almost £1 a litre, I think we can say £19 divided over the cost of a years motoring can be considered good value.
Even if you were only using your car for 3,000 miles a year, the £19 subscription would be costing £1 for almost every 158 miles of motoring.
Not bad when you consider all the other cost we incur to run the vehicles, let alone the possible points and £60 fine, for a moments lapse of concentration.
Though I doubt if you are only driving 3,000 miles a year, you would be interested in satnavs, but i could be wrong. _________________ Mick
Go 1005 in need of resuscitation
GO 950 Dead,
GO 920 Dead
Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 14901 Location: Keynsham
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: IPR ?
mrg2003 wrote:
If I submit a camera to PGPSW, and also to another database, who owns the IPR?, surely me, as I identified it and I can submit it to whom I like? IS every item in the PGPSW database recorded against individuals, or PGPSW?
Are the databases somehow keyed (MD5?) to each user?
I'm sure i asked this before, but didn't get an answer
Jeepers, doesn't it just go on?
Sadly, whilst I know what PGPSW means, I don't know what IPR and MD5 mean, so I'll have to let them pass me by.
When you tell somebody a secret, it is no longer YOUR secret, you've given it away. Same with cameras, except NOBODY owns the "knowledge" of their existence and location.
What PGPSW do is to collect together all the details they've been given and work some sort of magic with them to make them show up on my and about 20 other different types of satellite navigation devices. I don't know about you and the rest of the members of this site, but I have no idea how to do that and I have no time to do it even if I did know how.
So PGPSW do know and do make the time (actually pay somebody to put in the time) and pay to run a website to make it easy for me to download their product, another magic that I don't understand, simply believe in. Anybody who complains that they charge for this service wants his head examining. You don't like them using data you've supplied? Stop supplying, then - there are loads of us out here who will gladly continue in your stead.
I don't know what you mean by keying. I do know that another magic is that PGPSW identify every download to the individual member who downloads it so that if a pirate copy comes to their attention, they can identify and ban the member who released it. I sent them a copy of a pirate one I downloaded last week and the member promptly got the boot and lost (the very large balance of) his £19 subscription.
As for cost per mile, Mick, work mine out for 60,000 miles a year - is it 3 hundredths of a penny (0.03p) a mile? For comparison, my fuel cost is running at 6.21p a mile - since April, 27,903 miles, £1,732.42. That's excluding VAT, so it would cost the rest of you 7.3p a mile. _________________ Dennis
I haven't read all the posts on here (not time!) but my threepennyworth is:
£19 a year is too much for the occasional user
£2 for "one month" was too little.
Maybe £10 for a one month one-off would have been better, with a £19 option for all year?
If the updates were "perfect" then £19 would be fine, but my experience is that they contain many out of date camera's that are simply not there. I realise that it is very hard to monitor things like mobile camera's ofc, but when you are charging £20 a year, the expectation level increases.
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15258 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject:
tomo1340 wrote:
the notable exception is one mobile camera I submitted ages ago and (unless it is in the new issue) never appeared on the software, which did make me wonder if it was happening to other users. Actually I wasn't subscribed at the time,I wonder if that was the reason, but I did look on the map and submit it when I saw the camera as I wondered if it had been submitted already.
this one from 9th june 07?
"The camera when in use is located in the side garden of no 29 Aynam road in kendal. There is usually an unmarked police car near it and sometimes a marked car in a layby about 300 yards before it. The road is a one way street but the camera is always positioned on the left hand side."
it was rejected by one of our verifiers as the description did not match the co-ordinates given.
MaFt
Last edited by MaFt on Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15258 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: IPR ?
mrg2003 wrote:
If I submit a camera to PGPSW, and also to another database, who owns the IPR?, surely me, as I identified it and I can submit it to whom I like? IS every item in the PGPSW database recorded against individuals, or PGPSW?
the actual co-ordinates are, essentially, public domain - anyone can see a camera and work out coordinates. however, the copyright is for the physical database and the work involved in maintaining all the data, the storage and retrieval systems, the many many scripts and codes required to release over 250 unique database versions etc etc etc.
mrg2003 wrote:
Are the databases somehow keyed (MD5?) to each user?
it has been mentioned many times that we can, and do, trace downloads back to individual users.
Dennis: IPR = intelectual property rights, MD5 is a security measure that encrypts data. for example in our master database for the forum we cannot see users passwords all we see is the MD5 hash. data passed from the login page is encrypted this way so no one ever sees your password. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5
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