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Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:04 am Post subject:
kentnicklloyd wrote:
Jonathan also says they can not send anymore data then one local zone
Assuming for a moment that RDS TMC reception was excellent, would you necessarily need data for more than one zone?
I think that the TrafficMaster Freeway system only gives information for about 25 miles ahead.
If your local zone is larger than this, then the chances are that traffic conditions may well have changed before you reach a problem in another zone. For the sake of argument, if we say the the local zone covers a radius of 30 miles and you are travelling at 60mph, then it will take 30 minutes to reach the edge of that zone, by which time you may well be receiving data from a different zone anyway.
Yes, the TrafficMaster TMC data does appear to cover the whole UK, but the other thing which we don't know is what algorithm GPS manufacturers use for re-routing around problems or how far ahead they might re-route.
It's a real pity that iTIS aren't in a position to tell us when more radio stations might be added to their network - and, unlike TrafficMaster, they are actually willing to contribute to this forum whilst both providers have been invited to join us here. _________________ Andy
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To the best of my knowledge the Trafficmaster Freeway works up to 10 miles or 2 junctions ahead (if less).
On one of my occasional routes I come south down the M5 and leave at J15 joining the M4 for Bristol and points eastbound. Unfortunately because it is about 12 miles from J14 of the M5 to J15 I am sometimes past my last escape route before the Freeway tells me there are problems around Bristol on the M4. I wish it was 25 miles!
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject:
It was a stab in the dark and working from (failing) memory, but I was trying to demonstrate a point that having nationwide information might not be of benefit because of the time it may take you to reach a certain point.
Again, I could be wrong
...this is why I use radio traffic bulletins in addition to TMC and the Freeway - but even that isn't failsafe _________________ Andy
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Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 14 Location: Thanet, Margate, Kent
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:53 am Post subject:
dannyw wrote:
For an incident to be reported via TMC a primary location, secondary location (The Secondary is computed by an offset and direction) and event code is required. The secondary location is the location you would encounter first when heading towards the incident.
Danny, in this case you had beter have a look at the records for Tuesday 4th September 2007, A2 there was an accedent at Bean, London bound but according to my MIO C510E the hold-up was showing in Text as reported as Kent bound, this I found unsual as I was heqading towards it but no reroute, it would appear that the data was broadcast with the right direction but the Text was showing the wrong direction, I do have an image showing this but have yet to download it from the camera.
For an incident to be reported via TMC a primary location, secondary location (The Secondary is computed by an offset and direction) and event code is required. The secondary location is the location you would encounter first when heading towards the incident.
Danny, in this case you had beter have a look at the records for Tuesday 4th September 2007, A2 there was an accedent at Bean, London bound but according to my MIO C510E the hold-up was showing in Text as reported as Kent bound, this I found unsual as I was heqading towards it but no reroute, it would appear that the data was broadcast with the right direction but the Text was showing the wrong direction, I do have an image showing this but have yet to download it from the camera.
Nick
It would be interesting to see the image if you have time.
I've posted some images of similar problems earlier in this thread but I also have some more.
It's difficult to generalise though. Usually the direction is shown correctly in the first heading line but incorrectly in the sub-heading. In this case the direction is usually shown correctly on the map. In other instances, probably rare, the direction is incorrect in the first line and correct in the second line. In these instances the direction seems to be shown incorrectly on the map.
There are some instances recently where the direction is shown correctly in both lines of the report (I've never seen this up until a few weeks or so ago). At first I thought this was due to a recent Miomap update but I see, having reverted to an earlier 3.2 version, that it isn't. Puzzling.
I've commented before that the direction problem doesn't seem to impact continental TMC reports. Most if not all of the congestion reports I've seen on the continent are linked to French premium TMC messages. There doesn't seem to be the same problem. If you assume that the first line of the UK TMC messages are usually correct in terms of direction flow (and the second line is usually incorrect) then the second line would also be correct if you incorrectly assume that in the UK we drive on the right hand side of the road.
What I don't understand is why sometimes both lines agree with each other in terms of direction flow.
What I suspect is happening is that where the second line of the TMC message is correct but the first line incorrect there is a problem with the accuracy of the TMC data transmission. I could be wrong but given that this scenario is pretty rare it perhaps makes at least some sense (genuine transmission errors are rare).
The reception problems with iTIS data over Classic FM are silly: in a number of major towns in Surrey I'm unable to receive any signal at all until I move towards the outskirts.
The A322 corridor towards the M3, for example, enjoys hardly any reception at all.
The shoe string reception mechanism has come in for a lot of criticism but having seen a splitter implementation over the weekend it seems to be little (if any) better.
It's good to know that iTIS may be broadening its transmission base but I see that this doesn't cover many geographical areas - the assumption seems to be that Classic FM will still provide the coverage for most areas despite the fact that Classic FM clearly does not.
I am happy to now post a finalised list of the radio stations we will be using to extend our TMC Coverage. These will run alongside our existing network of stations, which incorporate Classic FM, and Real Radio Yorkshire. And additionally in Scotland, Clyde 1, Forth FM, Moray Firth Radio, North Sound Radio, Radio Borders, Tay FM and West Sound Radio. The expected "go live" date for these stations will be 1st January 2008.
Station FX MHz Area
Smooth London, 102.2, London
Smooth Manchester, 100.4, North West England
Century Radio, 101.8, North East England
Century Radio, 100.7, North East England
Century Radio, 96.4, Hexham
Century Radio, 96.2, Fenham
Century 105, 105.4, North West England
Smooth, 106.6, East Midlands
Smooth, 105.7, West Midlands
Smooth, TBA, North East
Smooth, TBA, North East
Smooth, TBA, North East
Wish FM, 102.4, Wigan
Wire FM, 107.2, Warrington
Signal 1, 102.6, South Cheshire
Signal 1, 96.4, South Cheshire
Signal 1, 96.9, South Cheshire
CFM, 102.5, Penrith
CFM, 102.2, West Cumbria
CFM, 103.4, West Cumbria
CFM, 96.4, Carlisle
Kiss 100 FM, 100.0, London
Magic 105.4 FM, 105.4, London
Kiss 101, 101.0, Severn Estuary
Kiss 101, 97.2, Bristol
Kiss 105-108, 107.7, Peterborough
Kiss 105-108, 106.1, Norwich
Kiss 105-108, 106.4, Ipswich
Kiss 105-108, 105.6, Cambridge
Wave 105 FM, 105.8, Poole
Wave 105 FM, 105.2, Solent _________________ Jon Foxley
ITIS Holdings PLC
I am happy to now post a finalised list of the radio stations we will be using to extend our TMC Coverage. These will run alongside our existing network of stations, which incorporate Classic FM, and Real Radio Yorkshire. And additionally in Scotland, Clyde 1, Forth FM, Moray Firth Radio, North Sound Radio, Radio Borders, Tay FM and West Sound Radio. The expected "go live" date for these stations will be 1st January 2008.
Station FX MHz Area
Smooth London, 102.2, London
Smooth Manchester, 100.4, North West England
Century Radio, 101.8, North East England
Century Radio, 100.7, North East England
Century Radio, 96.4, Hexham
Century Radio, 96.2, Fenham
Century 105, 105.4, North West England
Smooth, 106.6, East Midlands
Smooth, 105.7, West Midlands
Smooth, TBA, North East
Smooth, TBA, North East
Smooth, TBA, North East
Wish FM, 102.4, Wigan
Wire FM, 107.2, Warrington
Signal 1, 102.6, South Cheshire
Signal 1, 96.4, South Cheshire
Signal 1, 96.9, South Cheshire
CFM, 102.5, Penrith
CFM, 102.2, West Cumbria
CFM, 103.4, West Cumbria
CFM, 96.4, Carlisle
Kiss 100 FM, 100.0, London
Magic 105.4 FM, 105.4, London
Kiss 101, 101.0, Severn Estuary
Kiss 101, 97.2, Bristol
Kiss 105-108, 107.7, Peterborough
Kiss 105-108, 106.1, Norwich
Kiss 105-108, 106.4, Ipswich
Kiss 105-108, 105.6, Cambridge
Wave 105 FM, 105.8, Poole
Wave 105 FM, 105.2, Solent
That's quite a comprehensive coverage list. But I see that there isn't much extra coverage for the south east of England including Surrey/Hampshire and Sussex.
I wonder if the Kiss 100 FM and Magic 105.4 FM data will be received in areas outside of London (Surrey for example) where it is possible to pick up the FM broadcasts.
The problem I have is that despite being able to receive Classic FM radio transmissions without a problem I can't receive the TMC data in a number of major urban areas in the south/south east of England.
Recently when I was in Cumbria I saw, on a number of occasions, the fact that Smooth FM was being picked up. I haven't seen a similar test signal (if that's what it was) for Kiss FM and Magic FM.
I notice that in parts of South Wales iTIS uses a local radio station to transmit the data (I can't remember the name of the station but the services works very well).
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:54 am Post subject:
Jon, Many thanks for the heads up and comprehensive frequency list, this is sligthly larger than I was anticipating to be honest!
I will add in the transmitter locations / power levels later tonight, but this could take some time with over 30 to work through.
Would it be possible to inform the forum as each of these stations are brought on line or do you anticipate a ''Grand Switch On'' for the beginning of next year?
This network coverage increase coupled with the recent TomTom revised RDS receiver should go a long way to improve reception for a great many users, the Navman receiver is already as good as the revised TT product IMHO (actually as it is equipped with the external aerial socket the Navman receiver is still ahead in terms of true flexibility) so users of that range of devices have encountered good reception in the UK for some time. I agree reception is never going to be 100% but this is a step in the right direction - Mike
I notice that in parts of South Wales iTIS uses a local radio station to transmit the data (I can't remember the name of the station but the services works very well).
We also use the Real Radio Stations in Wales. These seem to have dropped off my initial list. _________________ Jon Foxley
ITIS Holdings PLC
Joined: Nov 24, 2006 Posts: 77 Location: Worcester, UK
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject:
Good news indeed, but like others, I see little coverage, still, in some areas. I would welcome clarification, for example, of the "West Midlands" (Smooth Radio). Which transmitter(s) (repeaters) will that involve? The main transmitter in the area is Sutton Coldfield which already broadcasts the TMC signal on Classic FM. Since (we are told) the signal strength is the same for all stations broadcast from a single transmitter, how would adding the signal to another station on the same transmitter (if that will be the case) improve reception?
There are repeater stations, for example, at Malvern and Kidderminster, both of which are also originating stations for Local Radio (BBC Hereford & Worcester and Wyvern FM - (owned by the same people as Classic FM, I believe)) The Malvern one in particular, from it's elevated position on the Malvern Hills, gives coverage to a large part of the Severn Valley and the M5 and would be a very useful transmitter to broadcast from.
I have no technical knowledge - these are just thoughts - but I'de be interested in the answers.
Station FX MHz Area
Smooth London, 102.2, London
Smooth Manchester, 100.4, North West England
Century Radio, 101.8, North East England
Century Radio, 100.7, North East England
Century Radio, 96.4, Hexham
Century Radio, 96.2, Fenham
Century 105, 105.4, North West England
Smooth, 106.6, East Midlands
Smooth, 105.7, West Midlands
Smooth, TBA, North East
Smooth, TBA, North East
Smooth, TBA, North East
Wish FM, 102.4, Wigan
Wire FM, 107.2, Warrington
Signal 1, 102.6, South Cheshire
Signal 1, 96.4, South Cheshire
Signal 1, 96.9, South Cheshire
CFM, 102.5, Penrith
CFM, 102.2, West Cumbria
CFM, 103.4, West Cumbria
CFM, 96.4, Carlisle
Kiss 100 FM, 100.0, London
Magic 105.4 FM, 105.4, London
Kiss 101, 101.0, Severn Estuary
Kiss 101, 97.2, Bristol
Kiss 105-108, 107.7, Peterborough
Kiss 105-108, 106.1, Norwich
Kiss 105-108, 106.4, Ipswich
Kiss 105-108, 105.6, Cambridge
Wave 105 FM, 105.8, Poole
Wave 105 FM, 105.2, Solent
That must be (at least) a doubling of the number of transmitters. Can you give us an idea of the TMC AF assignment for each. I guess this is key to maintaining a constant data stream to a receiver in a mobile situation.
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject:
This might illustrate the new transmitters and make it easier to see where they are, the ones in red are currently in use, the green ones are the new ones - Mike
Joined: Nov 24, 2006 Posts: 77 Location: Worcester, UK
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:37 am Post subject:
Looks like there will still be large swathes of the country with minimal coverage then. The southwest, south west midlands, mid/north wales all jump out as being rather sparse. Oh well, still a step in the right the direction I suppose.
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