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jgombos Regular Visitor
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: Laptops vs. dedicated devices for the car |
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With dedicated devices costing about what a cheap laptop costs, I get the impression it might make more sense to install a small laptop in a car, and use GPS software.
Has anyone experimented with this idea? The larger screen (perhaps 12") and other capabilities (like mp3, and option to use as a laptop) seems more appealing - particularly for folks who use laptops anyway.
I'm thinking it would take some creative mounting though. |
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jgombos Regular Visitor
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: Another advantage |
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It also occurs to me that a laptop would inherently have the option of switching software if something better comes along a couple years later, because the software is not tied to the hardware. |
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Skippy Pocket GPS Verifier
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: |
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It's an interesting idea, you could use it as an entertainment system in your car too and play DVDs, MP3s, Internet etc. There are some Car PC websites out there where people have put PCs in cars and done some pretty cool stuff (not all that cheaply though).
Back in the days when a Sat Nav system cost £500 or more it would have been a pretty attractive option, but you can now get a decent Sat Nav for under £200. Don't forget that this comes with a GPS receiver, mapping software and the maps which would probably cost you £100 or more to buy for your PC. _________________ Gone fishing! |
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mikealder Pocket GPS Moderator
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Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Skippy wrote: | There are some Car PC websites out there where people have put PCs in cars and done some pretty cool stuff (not all that cheaply though). | They don't cost too much and give you the flexibility of screen location, the laptop would work but will take up a huge area in the car, have a look at THIS for some in car computer ideas (I use one of these boards, not the fastest but easy to power in the car unlike some other boards) - Mike |
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Darren Frequent Visitor
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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I have a few issues with PC/Laptop solutions:
The PC software is way behind that of PocketPC's and PND's. There is no TomTom equivalent and whilst AutoRoute and similar offerings are OK, they are not brilliant.
Secondly Laptops don't lend themselves to European cars and the screens aren't great in direct sunlight.
No inexpensive laptops have touchscreens making in-car operation difficult. Those that do are at the £1000+ end of the scale.
You also need an inverter or specific 12v power supply to power them.
If you want to be able to upgrade as new software comes along, get a PocketPC solution?
With a TomTom ONE available at £170 the argument begins to fall apart! _________________ Darren Griffin |
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jgombos Regular Visitor
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: Good points Darren |
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Yeah, giving up the touchscreen is quite a compromise. Wouldn't voice recognition be a substitute?
It wouldn't bother me to give up TomTom. TT is the one maker who keeps their software substantially locked up. Unlike Garmin and Megallen, TT refuses to publish their serial protocols, so open source progress is stopped, while Garmin and Magellan will be able to gain ground from open source contributors.
Even if TT is on top today, I just don't see much of a future for it, considering the Chinese are undercutting them on hardware, and the fact that TT is such a black box, useability is hindered with their Micro$oft business model.
I would expect some loss of quality in going from a dedicated gps to a laptop, but I'm thinking it may be acceptible considering the other benefits of having a laptop in the car.
From an ethical standpoint, I always try to support cooperative vendors over the ones who are competitive to the point of extreme red tape. If a maker publishes their specs for the linux community, I want to reward it, even if it's not the best product out there. That's easier to do on a laptop, where the hardware is not controlled by the software makers. |
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Darren Frequent Visitor
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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In what way are Garmin 'open'? I'm not a TomTom apologist but they do make an SDK available which allows third parties to code add-ons etc. Garmin don't offer this and I've never heard them described as open before!
I'm not clear what you mean by 'serial protocols'?
The Chinese/Taiwanese/Japanese will always be able to undercut on hardware but what they're good at is emulation not innovation. None of their hardware is leading edge, simply copies of other products and they fail in the GPS Navigation market because their software is very poor where indeed it exists at all.
TomTom succeed because they have a good product in the same way as Garmin, Magellan et al do. There isn't a serious Far East competitor to a Garmin handheld why?
As for usability, TomTom have (IMHO) the best interface of them all and following the Microsoft business model is no bad thing, it hasn't harmed Microsoft! I son't see open source taking over any time soon, the investment required to produce these devices required money from some place, map data isn't free and we are a very long way off an open source routable map. _________________ Darren Griffin |
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Skippy Pocket GPS Verifier
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Darren wrote: | The Chinese/Taiwanese/Japanese will always be able to undercut on hardware but what they're good at is emulation not innovation. |
Dr Min Kao is Taiwanese. ![Wink](modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ Gone fishing! |
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jgombos Regular Visitor
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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The source for most of my comments about being open is here:
http://www.ibiblio.org/fplan/Aviation-HOWTO/Aviation-HOWTO-8.html
Then I also noticed "Garmin" appears in several places on this page:
http://opensourcegis.org/
Darren wrote: | In what way are Garmin 'open'? I'm not a TomTom apologist but they do make an SDK available which allows third parties to code add-ons etc. |
SDKs probably enable TT to maintain control over everything while stimulating development of 3rd party plugins. Microsoft does the same thing. M$ refuses to disclose the format of the Word document. Word would never survive if it had no means for expansion, so M$ makes APIs available, enabling M$ to micromanage 3rd parties. I imagine this is what TT is doing. They do not want the open source community to reduce their product to hardware, and give consumers the option to use free software without buying TTs maps.
Darren wrote: |
I'm not clear what you mean by 'serial protocols'? |
I believe what's open is the language that desktops use to communicate to the portable gps device, which is usually accomplished through a serial interface. Knowing those protocols is all that's needed to update maps. So it's now feasible for people to create their own maps, and load them on to the garmin.
Darren wrote: |
The Chinese/Taiwanese/Japanese will always be able to undercut on hardware but what they're good at is emulation not innovation. None of their hardware is leading edge, simply copies of other products and they fail in the GPS Navigation market because their software is very poor where indeed it exists at all.
TomTom succeed because they have a good product in the same way as Garmin, Magellan et al do. There isn't a serious Far East competitor to a Garmin handheld why?
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TT and Garmin units have long been unaffordable. The cheap replicas (which are affordable) have served well to drive the price down. I just bought a TT standalone unit for ~$218 USD. That would not have been possible without the competition. So my point is that it damages TTs business. Their future looks bleak with the sudden competition twisting their arm, and the fact that users will no longer be forced to put up with something so locked down.
Darren wrote: |
As for usability, TomTom have (IMHO) the best interface of them all and following the Microsoft business model is no bad thing, it hasn't harmed Microsoft! |
Microsofts business model harms everyone but Microsoft. However, TomTom does not have a stranglehold on people the way Microsoft does, so the same strategies cannot be exploited as fully.
Darren wrote: |
I son't see open source taking over any time soon, the investment required to produce these devices required money from some place, map data isn't free and we are a very long way off an open source routable map. |
We've seen that open source developers will invest copious amounts of effort without asking for a dime for it. And all the map data is freely available, at least in the US, because the raw data (which is produced by the government) is public domain. So it's just a matter of processing the data into a useable form. I'm not sure what's to stop the open source community from doing that. |
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Darren Frequent Visitor
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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jgombos wrote: | TAnd all the map data is freely available, at least in the US, because the raw data (which is produced by the government) is public domain. So it's just a matter of processing the data into a useable form. I'm not sure what's to stop the open source community from doing that. |
There is a world of difference between having freely available raster map data and having navigable maps hence the lack of such! _________________ Darren Griffin |
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jgombos Regular Visitor
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Darren wrote: |
There is a world of difference between having freely available raster map data and having navigable maps hence the lack of such! |
The difference may simply be google. I read somewhere that one of the open source projects was using google maps. Why not let google do all the work converting to vector graphics? |
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Darren Frequent Visitor
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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But that's not the issue, it's the navigation specific data, turn information, speed, no entry etc? That's what makes a map navigable. There are open source projects but they are never going to be practical on a large scale or at least not in a good many years.
Don't get me wrong, I applaud such attempts but I'm a realist and it's just not going to happen on anywhere near the scale required to tip the balance. Sure it'll keep some geeks happy for a while but Mr & Mrs Smith are going to but a brand name device. _________________ Darren Griffin |
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Skippy Pocket GPS Verifier
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a big fan of Garmin but Darren is right, they aren't at all open.
You mention that you have just brought a TT stand alone unit. Have a poke around in it, if you are into hacking then I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what you can do....
They run the Open Source Busy Box on a Linux kernel.
TomTom publish a TomTom SDK kit api which allows developers to integrate your own applications into TomTom.
You can run shell / perl scripts or your own applications on your TomTom unit. Have a look at the Open TomTom Wiki.
There's enough there for a keen hacker to be getting on with.
As for map formats, it's true that some people have reverse engineered the Garmin format (in breach of the licensing agreement) but there has been NO help from Garmin in doing this. I don't think that it's any co-incidence that the people who did the bulk of the reverse engineering were based in Russia where they probably won't get traced or sued either...
It is in Garmin (and TomTom's) interest to keep their map formats private so they can protect the mapping data from being copied/modified and prevent third parties making maps to sell without paying a license fee.
The fact that the Garmin map format has been reverse engineered is more a function of Garmin units having been available (and popular) for so long than Garmin being "open". _________________ Gone fishing! |
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lola Lifetime Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: |
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I had a GPS mouse for my laptop and I have to say it worked well BUT was unsafe to use, cannot see the screen on the passenger seat and the sound on the laptop couldnt be heard above my diesel engine. Also it doesnt re-route, doesnt work with traffic and so on.
Sold the GPS mouse and bought a TTOV2 Europe and am very pleased with it. The laptop belongs to work.
In my view there is no discussion to be had. |
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philpugh Lifetime Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Laptops vs. dedicated devices for the car |
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jgombos wrote: | With dedicated devices costing about what a cheap laptop costs, I get the impression it might make more sense to install a small laptop in a car, and use GPS software.
Has anyone experimented with this idea? The larger screen (perhaps 12") and other capabilities (like mp3, and option to use as a laptop) seems more appealing - particularly for folks who use laptops anyway.
I'm thinking it would take some creative mounting though. |
There's always the "middle ground" - PDA versions of the s/w. That's what I have TT6 on Dell AXIM. Again not cheap - but I use the PDA for home and business as well as both navigation (TT6) for in car and topo mapping (Anquet / OziExplorer) for walking/cycling. |
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