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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject: Rip-off Britain?
Having been on the cusp of buying an eTrex Vista I was convinced to wait for the new Garmin GPSMAP60cs. Indicative prices and discounts on the internet would make it about £36-380 (£100 more than the vista), but a lot more for the money.
However....
The US RRP is $535....available on the web for around $420.
The UK RRP is £507....available on the web for £499.95
This is made in Taiwan. The $:£ exchange rate is around $1.75:£1 to us mere mortals.
Joined: Jan 20, 2004 Posts: 27 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:08 am Post subject:
Hiya,
Alas, the grass is always greener......
I have a retail concern that I run with my wife, and since we also trade online we have to answer questions like this all the time. Sadly the (tabloid) press hype has shouted down the voice of reason. Please don't take my rant personally, no offense is meant, but this needs to be said.
US stores do not pay 17.5% VAT, US stores usually do not suffer the same import gestapo that is UK C&E. Additionally, the USA soesn't suffer the same geographical saturation that this overpopulated island does. I can setup a store in the USA and know that my nearest competitor might be 300 miles away. If you factor in all of the issues a UK business has to face (especially all the legislation a small UK company has to deal with, sick pay, maternity pay, etc, etc, etc) that a US company doesn't have to deal with until they have a large (at least 20+) workforce, I think you'll see why prices are a little higher in the UK.
One more thing, when you run a business in the USA, you don't suffer nearly as much from the "What'll You Do Me For Cash, Mate?" brigade. The UK population has been taught never to pay full price for anything, as a result of the increased haggling, many stores who weren't making much as it was are now forced to increase prices in an effort to make the "Cash Deal" crewe feel like they're getting a bargain.
Once normal service can be resumed and UK companies can go about business without out being villified as a rip-off at the first sign of profit, and we'll all be a lot better off.
If you don't like the someones price, vote with your feet.
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Rip-off Britain?
nibbles wrote:
Having been on the cusp of buying an eTrex Vista I was convinced to wait for the new Garmin GPSMAP60cs.
The US RRP is $535....available on the web for around $420.
The UK RRP is £507....available on the web for £499.95
Does anyone else find this just a tad annoying?!
When you compare prices, you have to be VERY careful that you are comparing like with like. In the past there were different Garmin models (with different maps) for the USA and European markets. The European streetmaps are well expensive compared to the USA maps and this bumped up the price of Garmin's UK market GPS units like the GPS-V and Street Pilot III. The USA market GPS units looked like a good deal but once you factored in the cost of the European maps which were bundled with the UK GPS the price difference disappeared.
The GPSMAP60cs and iQue are a completely different story though. It doesn't take a degree in maths to figure out the economics of these units!
You do need to buy City Select Europe if you want street mapping and this costs £200 with all regions unlocked. You would have to buy this if you brought your GPSMAP60cs in the UK anyway.
GPSMAP60cs
UK price: £507 (£431 + VAT)
USA price: £240 ($420)
Another interesting one is the iPaq 4150 (Latest model, with Bluetooth and WiFi built-in).
Dixons/Comet price: £450 (£383 plus VAT)
Global Positioning Systems.co.uk £334 (£284 plus VAT)
USA price £230 ($400)
Flight to New York for the weekend: £200
Sticking two fingers up at rip-off Britain: Priceless.
If you take a shopping trip to NY and bring back some stuff, technically customs could make you pay VAT on it. But if it isn't brand new and in the box then how do they know that you didn't buy it here in the UK and take it on holiday to NY?
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject: Greener grass over the pond!
You wrote:::
One more thing, when you run a business in the USA, you don't suffer nearly as much from the "What'll You Do Me For Cash, Mate?" brigade. The UK population has been taught never to pay full price for anything
NOT the case, just take a look at some of the motorcycle and car
chat groups. The Americans don't/want pay list for anything.
Here in the UK we have Too many middle men sat on their fat a****
just pulling in the cash for nothing. I have a mate who runs a small
firm and he has to buy through three dealers/ whole salers to get
his goods, items here sell for the number of pounds as they are sold
in $ in the USA Plus vat.
Have a nice day. Lyn.
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:15 pm Post subject: British prices
While I appreciate the burden of compliance placed on UK businesses (I run a small business myself), I do not agree that we are used to haggling in this country, especially not for electronic goods.
Also, economies of scale and lower costs come into play- e.g. I can buy an eTrex Vista from Amazon.co.uk for a reasonably low price (£20 more than gpsw.co.uk for instance), which means they are still able to introduce a reasonable online discount.
Some online retailers though, as in the case of the GPSMAP60cs, offer no discount at all when compared to retail shops. This is profiteering...and excessive profits is one of the factors causing the growth in online stores.
Equally though, this situation is perpetuated by manufacturers, such as Garmin, who set RRPs which exploit consumers willingness (not ability) to pay. I am sure Garmins market would soar if it acknowledged its products are overpriced in the UK. They do not return emails.
I will happily pay more to receive good service, but I will not accept overheads as an argument to justify a price online I can pay in the street.
A product manufactured in Taiwan, with a unit cost of probably less than £100 should not cost more in a country with a lower GDP per head..yet it does. It is half as expensive in the US where each person has, on average, 50% more income that a UK person per year.
The market will stagnate, development will slow, and the next generation of explorers will go uninspired.
In my day job as a teacher, I could achieve so much more if I wasn't asked to pay so much. We will all pay the price in time.
If I buy online, I want value and customer service. I can't get it in the high street anymore. It is a rare and precious thing.
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:57 am Post subject: Re: British prices
nibbles wrote:
Also, economies of scale and lower costs come into play- e.g. I can buy an eTrex Vista from Amazon.co.uk for a reasonably low price (£20 more than gpsw.co.uk for instance), which means they are still able to introduce a reasonable online discount.
In a lot of cases it also depends on what stock has been purchased. Amazon may be sitting on 1000 eTrex's, or just 50 eTrex's, but for whatever reason they're just not selling (perhaps they got into the wrong market) or the type of customer they are getting just aren't interested in the eTrex, in which case they're buy-in price may have been a lot higher than that currently of GPSW or other stores because they have already sold the earlier units and Garmin has reduced the newer units they are buying in. Other reasons for higher prices can also be due to having thousands or tens of thousands of products on their books, trying to monitor price drops with other retailers is difficult at best. Most retailers make it the norm that if they buy a product in at X, their margin is Y and the retail price is Z. They're happy to discount by a small amount, but cannot discount below that of they're buy in price otherwise they might as well not be in business. It's all about stock management and how to play the game.
nibbles wrote:
Some online retailers though, as in the case of the GPSMAP60cs, offer no discount at all when compared to retail shops. This is profiteering...and excessive profits is one of the factors causing the growth in online stores.
Not all retailers are after the same customers. Some are more than happy to just keep supplying the customers they have that know they provide a fair level of service, and some people are more than happy to pay that price. If you're not happy you can shop around, but caveat emptor (Let the buyer beware). Many people here in the forums have sent me emails and I have watched with intrigue that they'll try and find the cheapest retailer, even if it's on ebay, and in some cases they've gone for a retailer because it's as little as £1 cheaper than the rest. Then they have a problem like it takes 2 weeks to arrive, or that there's a problem after sale, try to return it and have lots of hassle, then they start spouting off in our forums about how the retailer is bad.
nibbles wrote:
I will happily pay more to receive good service, but I will not accept overheads as an argument to justify a price online I can pay in the street.
All companies have overheads, some are more than others, it really depends how the business is managed, what stock is tied up, how much staff is costing them and taxes. Some retailers you will see here in the forums and on the site run their business out of a single room in their house, others have huge premises. Will you be happy to take a pay cut next time yor school gives your salary an annual review because they have higher overheads than the next school down the road who are now receiving more grant because they appear to be more effective with the grants they are getting ?
nibbles wrote:
A product manufactured in Taiwan, with a unit cost of probably less than £100 should not cost more in a country with a lower GDP per head..yet it does. It is half as expensive in the US where each person has, on average, 50% more income that a UK person per year.
I agree some products are manufacturered for next to nothing, but you then have freight costs, import duties to pay with customs, higher taxes and rates for businesses in the UK, it all adds up.
Sure you can go ahead and try and buy the product direct from Taiwan say on ebay, but caveat emptor. If you have a problem with a product, what's the level of support going to be ? If you buy in the UK you have consumer law to protect you, what if you buy in Taiwan ? Or US ?
A lot of things in the UK would be solved by reducing taxes across the board, not going to war and wasting billions of pounds, converting the NHS and pensions from a state cost to a business one making people pay for health care and pensions rather than relying on the state. Don't get me wrong here, I like low prices like the next punter, but living in the UK puts a heavy tax burden on everyone. That's probably why a lot of people do emigrate each year, and why a lot of imigrants flock to the UK each year because they all know they can get something for nothing!
Some companies who manage to sell hundreds or thousands of units of a particular product will get much better discounts than other companies, this also has to be factored into the equation. The UK has become a shop around economy and when I'm looking to purchase I'll check half a dozen companies, but I rarely ever go for the lowest price, I'll go with one of the lower prices from a retailer I trust because I know I'm not going to get any hassles from them if I have to return the product.
Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:06 am Post subject: Good points
Thanks for the comprehensive reply!
My main gripe is that when I am buying online, I am looking for value. I lose the chance of handling the product, or speaking to skilled and knowledgable people (though not always), and I invest time and money to access and assess different sites. I too rarely buy the cheapest, but I do expect to find a lower price, most of the time, online.
I have been buying online for 8 years and use the stores which are reliable, efficient,responsive and offer value for money. I agree that saving small amounts and using unfamiliar etailers is often a false economy. Priceruner or Kelkoo can list cheap suppliers, but not necessarily the best to use.
What irks me is that we have a wonderful technology here, that has so much potential, yet much fo the potential market is at best unfamiliar with its possibilities. I have spent some considerable time recently learning the jargon, and products available. I have visited over 10 shops, including some in London, and yet have never found anyone who could demonstrate a GPS receiver. Sometimes, staff can't even provide batteries, and they are often reluctant to go outside!
I will not pay £400 for a Vista in a shop which knows nothing of the product and can't even switch it on. I would not buy it from an etailer at this price. I would buy it if typical dsicount was applied (e.g. 15-30% as on globalpositioningsystems.co.uk & gpsw.co.uk) and queries were answered quickly and helpfully. I have great faith in the effort and ethics of online traders.
This is a maturing market which is being held back - and buying cheap units from Asia or America is not the answer. The products need to be sold in the UK for the right price to people who know what they are and know where they can see, hold and use them
When is that going to happen?
PS Dave - as it happens, teachers have been given a pay cut this year, and grants went out the window long ago. When the school runs short of money, we just lose the budgets for things like books and computers. Nothing new there!
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:53 am Post subject:
Well, I'm just back from a couple of days in New York. I didn't buy any GPS gear but I did get a few of these Apple iPods. UK Price £250, brought three of them in the USA for £170 each. 8O
We are getting robbed blind for electronic gadgets here in the UK.
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