M6 Toll Road

Dave · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:33 am Post subject:

I agree with DavidW, Bandwidth costs do and will become phenominal. It's not just the case of having an FTP server, or even utilising the current bandwidth you have, for these size of downloads you need big pipes if you're going to server hundreds of thousands of users in distributing a full CD or two, or 7. The other big problem is if you are using the same internet connection for your infoware site, e.g. main website, then this will have an adverse effect on what users perceive. It will also have knock on effects on email too. Suddenly you start talking big money.

As DavidW said, we have experienced problems in the past 12 months on bandwidth, and server speeds over and over again, now we've decided to start paying big money to host the site, the site stability and speed is much better now (trying not to summon the god Murphy or Sod!)

Another thing to bear in mind is that most of the GPS companies are not big corporates like some think. Some only have half a dozen staff, continually re-working maps will take up a good 40-50% of their time which then means those new features you want, or the next version of the software is going to be delayed indefinitely.

Personally, I think the way companies like Mapoplis and TeleType are creating their maps is seriously worth a look. Although you have a complete country set of maps, the maps are broken down into areas or county's, so if you wanted to replace the maps to cater for the M6, in theory it's just replacing a couple of smaller maps. Whether still a lot of work needs to be done to re-compile all maps, make sure they stitch etc, I'm not sure. But certainly a modular approach (allowing for full country support without having to manually change a map segment) is advantageous.

ALK have quietly release CoPilot 4.5 in the States which will be available in the UK imminently, and this will support Q4 2003 maps, so (getting back on track) I am hoping TomTom will have some radically updated maps (and I'm sure they will).

ChrisDev · Occasional Visitor Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 33

I can appreciate both sides of this argument, but from a user perspective, I would hope that some support and ongoing maintenance costs are built into the initial costs of the software. I didn't pay £120 for out-of-date maps that I have no chance of updating without paying for the next version. That doesn't do your brand any good at all.

I think it's fair to say that the mapping inaccuracies within TomTom are fairly well documented and publicised on pocketgps and it will not be doing TomTom's product perception much good unless they start to realise that something needs to be done. All I'm asking for is a bit more open communication from them. If they're hard at work producing new maps for us then TELL US! Tell us that they'll be out in 3 months time, but with no communication all I can assume is that they either don't have new maps or don't care.

On a slightly related note, in these days of software piracy, I think TomTom do a good job of trying to stop it with their products. However, if I was slighly less moralistic, what is the point in me owning an original copy of the software if I don't see any ongoing benefit from it?

DavidW · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:17 pm Post subject:

If you expect updates for the purchase price, then I'm afraid you're destined to be disappointed.

I don't know the breakdown, but map data makes up a significant proportion of the purchase price. Dave has mentioned this in his previous posts, and he's far more in a position to know than I am.

Companies that produce geodata of any sort know how to charge for it, not least because it costs them a lot of money to keep it up to date. They aren't going to give away data updates for free - so the update costs have to be passed on to the purchasers. This argument about the cost of geodata doesn't just apply to digital maps - data such as the Royal Mail Postcode database has significant licence costs as well.

It's not as easy as the navigation software companies simply copying files they receive, either - I understand there's a fair amount of processing and testing that has to be done first.

Most companies are very cagey about their future plans until they're almost ready to release a product - this is just the way of the industry at the moment. There's been enough problems with "vapourware" in the past. If TomTom announced the specification for Navigator 3 now, and it wasn't available until May, it would give their competitors a chance to overtake them.

However, I think it inconceivable that TomTom will allow what is a leading product in the Pocket PC street navigation market to go out of date for want of up to date maps. We only have their previous record to guess at the future - which was an upgrade to both maps and software about a year after the first release for a very reasonable 40 Euros. I suspect we will see a new version announced within 4-5 months.

There were various improvements to the Navigator 2 program in the months after release, all of which were supplied free of charge; you simply had to download them.

Compare this to the cost of an upgrade CD for OEM vehicle satellite navigation systems. I believe a single disc for the Siemens system I could have had factory fitted in my Zafira costs around 150 pounds. I believe the only way to upgrade is to buy a new disc at full price.

David

thealbs · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:03 am Post subject:

Thanks for the lesson on bandwitdh. The argument may well have held water 2 years ago but bandwidth costs have plummetted recently with a massive over-supply - believe me, I'm a director in one of the five major UK comms/hosting companies and the more savvy clients are quite rightly hammering us down on bandwidth right now!! Many hosting suppliers are "giving away" bandwidth just to recognise the hosting and managed service costs.

I would gess that TomTom would have opted for a fixed amount/fixed price bandwidth with the capability to burst when neccesary. Should they be tied into a lengthy and potentially cost-prohibitive contract then I am sure that the majority of users who are crying out for map updates would be willing to contribute to the cost by paying a small charge for the download. That way, they can either opt in or out depending on their requirements. I'm not sure that the content edge caching services would store this amount of info in persistent store given the fact that it will be fairly infrequently downloaded (in comparisong with latest Microsoft Service Packs for example) so using one of them will almost certainly be false economy when compared with a more aggressive bandwidth contract.

Regarding the suggestion to turn navigation on/off at the appropriate points...I do actually know my way from London to Manchester using the UK motorways! Where TomTom adds value is in helping me predict the time of arrival so that I do not miss meetings, and also in re-routing me around any hazards. If I have to take a 27 mile "blind spot" I may as well not bother really.

I accept that small b-roads may not be mapped correctly but the longest road in the UK should really have a little more focus from the package providers.

Other than the potential costs to integrate the TeleAtlas maps into TomTom (something which few of us outside TomTom BV will understand the complexity of) I am yet to hear a convincing reason as to why this particular map change can't be issued in advance of the anticipated 2007 release!

Dave · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:31 am Post subject:

omaruk · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:03 pm Post subject:

My point is that the M6 Toll has been in construction since 1999 that means the full road plans would have been out for a lot longer than this.

Tom Tom or Teleatlas could/should have perhaps put the M6 toll as a dotted line (like you see on paper maps) that wasn't considered for routing puposes, a s'ware update could have been made available to make this road "live" once the M6 toll road was complete.

omaruk · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:11 pm Post subject:

I just read this on the Tom Tom site.

thealbs · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:06 pm Post subject:

I guess that simply means that Dell will be reselling a bundled version of TomTom as HP(?) I think also did recently?

It appears that we may all have an inflated view of "TomTom the company". Does anyone have any idea what size this company is in terms of headcount, turnover, etc?

(Dave - I notice you're hosted with NTT Verio at the mment - you have my email address on my profile - email me if you want some competitive hosting/bandwidth prices!!)

OJoe · Occasional Visitor Joined: Nov 19, 2003 Posts: 17

Why all the fuss about this new road? Twisted Evil

You can all save yourselves a lot of bother by resolving never to drive north of the Watford Gap. This will have the added benefit of never having to worry about undertsanding people or having to wonder what they look like underneath all that Wode.

Only people who drive around the "midlands" (sounds like something out of "The Hobbitt") would expect TomTom to have included the Toll road because we've known about it for years or to rush out an update just for them. No M6 toll road? Just another good reason to avoid the place!

Best regards and seasonal greetings,

Joe

alix776 · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:44 pm Post subject:

USE THE TOLL ROAD please get really it will cost me 10 quid each time i can say for cerantly that only major haulage companies will use it

as for tom tom nothaving the toll road on the maps yes it is a major messup by them but i think i can live with out it on the map as it would try to take me up it every time i was comeing up the m6 how come we didnt try to pressure or the map when tom tom came out last year Rolling Eyes

_________________
currently using aponia truck navigation on windows phone. Good bye IOS don't let the door hit you on the way out .

Oh the joys of being a courier.
device Lumia 950 xl

OJoe · Occasional Visitor Joined: Nov 19, 2003 Posts: 17

Alix - you're a perfect example of what I meant. People in the "midlands" don't even speak English... Twisted Evil

Can we get a translation?

DavidW · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:54 pm Post subject:

I thought alix's post was clear enough - but here's my go at a translation!

I think what he's asking is for as many people as possible to use M6 Toll (only 2 pounds for a car, I believe), so that the old M6 is as free-running as possible for him in his lorry (from memory he drives a Scania artic). At 10 pounds a time for an LGV, he's suggesting that only the larger haulage companies will pay up.

So far as TomTom goes, he's saying that it's a foul-up that M6 Toll isn't in the maps - but that it would probably have been trying to send him along M6 Toll every time he went that way earlier in the year. He also makes the point that we could have raised this when TomTom Navigator 2 first appeared earlier in the year, but we didn't.

Does that make sense now?

David

alix776 · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:01 pm Post subject:

thats it david the toll road was desinged for cars in general the toll for hgvs is so high so that hgvs dont use it and there for the surface will last longer . as for living in the midlands I LIVE IN THE NORTHWEST NOT THE MIDLANDS Laughing

contery to popular belief it cars that cause most of the conjestion not us bigwheelers if memery serves correct there are somthing like 450.000 comercial veihcles in the country compared to somthing like 23 million cars .

I was working on boxing day this year there was a small bump near junction 15 on the m6 there were about 8 trucks in que that follow the bump was two cars on the hard shoulder and all the cars had slowed down to have look this causes more holdups wasted fuel and stress for everyone is it any wonder that there so much road rage these days Mr. Green

_________________
currently using aponia truck navigation on windows phone. Good bye IOS don't let the door hit you on the way out .

Oh the joys of being a courier.
device Lumia 950 xl

OJoe · Occasional Visitor Joined: Nov 19, 2003 Posts: 17

Alix - You just stay in the inside lane, dear. OK?

For Motorway routes, all truck drivers should have that nice TomTom lady saying, "Keep to the inside lane" every few seconds. Then you wouldn't get in everybody's way all the time. Twisted Evil

You say you live in the North West? Where's that? Is that North of Manchester? That's very far North isn't it. Is that where the Lord of the RingRoads is? Question

By the way, do you know anywhere to download TomTom voice commands with a NorthWest accent? That would be good for you. I imagine it must be very difficult for you to understand the standard TomTom lady. "At de end of de rowd, tern rite." Wink

Best regards,

Joe

Dave · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:43 am Post subject:

Joe, North West is not midlands. Many southerners think North is anything above London, and I being a southerner also repeatedly think of Birmingham, Oxford, Milton Keynes as all being North. Well they are technically, North of where I am.

North of the country is more Newcastle Upon Tyne, Carlisle (excluding Scotland).

For the journeys I travel, most truck drivers do keep to the inside lane, they only venture out into the middle lane when they want to do an overtaking maneouver, or when they can't get back into the inside lane because there is now cars there. Yes it's annoying when you see two slow trucks overtaking on a dual carriageway up a hill, but lets face it, it's equally annoying seeing Lada or other small 1.0 litre car trying to overtake another vehicle up hill (which equally happens alot).

Most truckers I let out are much more appreciative than car drivers who don't acknowledge one fibre of their being to say thanks.

I think the thing that really annoys me is that when you see some trucks up front, so you all start getting into the outside lane of the dual carriageway in which to overtake them, and some

in a car comes speeding up in the inside lane with the look on his face "Oh this is nice, the inside lane is clear, now one of you let me into the outside lane will ya otherwise I'll force my way in!"

Anyway, that's enough off topicness here, we were talking about the M6 toll road not being on TTN2.

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