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Joined: 14/09/2002 20:56:18 Posts: 5231 Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject:
Strumble, you've been offered (what I hope is) a temporary workaround. Please, instead of going on abot how the server time is incorrect, use it. Pretty please.
Edited by Tim to include the fact that this thread isn't the place for such information, either. _________________ Tim
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject: PayPal - why not?
What's wrong with PayPal for making small payments? A lot of people seem to look at it with great suspicion, but it is so easy to register and use. I wouldn't be without it! :D
Joined: Oct 03, 2005 Posts: 52 Location: Hexham, Northumberland
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: POI database charges
After reading many of the relevant comments in this thread my own conclusion is that the managers of Pocket GPS World have misjudged their relationship with the wider world of users.
Transparency is the key to a successful conclusion.
It would be reasonable to expect the managers to explain what they need from this exercise in order to keep this excellent community in happy good health. No one expects people to work for nothing, nor do mutual communities like the idea of becoming a profit base.
I believe the proposal of a poll of registered members will help us all understand the strength of feeling. The first step is to decide on the question(s) to be answered.
A preamble to a poll should be written by the managers to explain in monetary terms what they have & what they need & why. On the basis that some kind of profit after costs needs to be achieved we should be told what the costs are and how any profit will be applied for the good of the community.
If charging for the POI database does go ahead there must be a choice of payment plans.
I do not think that anyone should subscribe to the idea that opposition to unexplained change will go away with time. It’s more likely the community will dilute to everyones disadvantage.
I've been following the thread since the beginning with interest.
For the record, I've rarely contributed to the forum and haven't sent in any cameras (I really wanted to - I tried driving up and down the A12, M11, A13 and A406, where I live where there a lot of cameras, but I found that it took about 2 seconds to register a camera using ScaredyCats add-in, and I couldn't be very accurate. Stopping on the Dual Carriageway didn't seem to be an option).
Anyway rather than rehashing previous points there is just one that has been touched on that I'd like to offer my view, and that is quality.
Like many here I feel I need this optional extra to my TomTom and can probably afford the cost. What I care about is the quality of the data. I can definitely understand those who feel duped by the change in the status and under what circumstances they contributed data, but I feel my concerns would hold true even if PGPSW started from scratch.
When my dad phoned me a couple of months ago having bought a TomTom Go 300 and wanting speed cameras on it, I sent him to this site (the ease for a non-techie like him to install caused me many painful phone calls, something that would probably need to be fixed for a commercial product, but that's another story).
The reason I told him to come to this site is that I genuinely believed that the multi contributor model leads to better quality data. That TomTom's database is always going to be worse because you can't ever have enough people on the road looking for cameras.
If the argument is that the new permanent hire to PGPSW will somehow be better at getting camera locations than a team of volunteers, it seems unconvincing to me. And ultimately we must compare with other commerical offerings now. I assume that TomTom (or a company they subcontract to) will also have people on the roads looking for cameras, why should I imagine PGPSW camera spotters to be better?
Unfortunately, I can't see as many people contributing cameras in the new regime and I just can't see the difference going forward between PGPSW and TomTom's model, except that the PGPSW database will be cheaper and harder to install.
1. Have all the moaners on this site any idea of the amount of time and effort Mike Barrett and co. put into organising and maintaining the camera database - all completely voluntarily? Would any of them be prepared to give up all their free time to do the same?
2. I forsaw the inevitablility of charging or for such an enterprise a long time ago. Such a massive undertaking as it has become needs to be run full-time.
3. I own a TTG Classic, a Garmin i3 and a Garmin Nuvi300 (my favourite) and use the PocketGPS cameras on all of them. When I first bought the TTG I made the mistake of buying the TTG camera database only to find it's nowhere near as accurate/comprehensive as the PocketGPS one! - and it's bl**dy expensive.
4. Around £24 a year or a £60 fine and penalty points on your licence. Surely there's no doubt which you need. I am not a "speedster" but there are occasions when one can exceed the limit without being aware of it so the camera database is a necessity.
5. There are no other options. This is not a case of PocketGPS having us by the 'short and curlies' but is down to their innovation, devotion, expertise and willingness to provide such a service for our benefit (which nobody else is prepared to undertake) and I for one pray that they will continue to maintain the service to its' present high standard, even if it has to be paid for.
6. Like it or lump the database is going to be a paid-for service so let's stop moaning about it which will achieve nothing and instead talk about what we consider would be a fair payment and the method(s) of payment.
7. My personal opinion? - No objection to a charge BUT (a) would much prefer a two-tier option of either £2 per download OR an annual charge of £20. (b) Would prefer payment by Credit card instead of Debit card as you have no protection from the card agency with a Debit card should it get compromised.
.
1. Have all the moaners on this site any idea of the amount of time and effort Mike Barrett and co. put into organising and maintaining the camera database - all completely voluntarily? Would any of them be prepared to give up all their free time to do the same?.
Your argument, although valid, is rather one sided paushandpull. what about all the contributors who also VOLUNTARILY took some of THEIR own free time to:
1. Pull over by the road and record the camera location.
2. Go home and upload the camera location into OUR database for the benefit of ALL.
Napoleon was right, Britain is turning into a nation of shopkeepers! If the likes of politically correct PushandPull have their way, no one would dare contradict their way of thinking and there would be no point in having DISCUSSION groups! Perhaps he feels we should be charging to help old ladies off buses also to ensure fair play!?
Anyway, enough frivolity, I think there are all sorts of issues about charged databases. Who pays when you get flashed by a camera not on the database? What guarantee is there of any of the data on the database? And what about malicious addition or removal of cameras by disgruntled ex forum members? There may be liability issues for the PGPSW to face in some circumstances (corporate liability?).
I can see why it may seem a nice idea to have a full time person working on the project but I think the damage that has and will be done by the suggestion of charging has seen the the beginning of the end for this site.
I hope I am wrong and, as this is a DISCUSSION group, feel free to shoot my ideas down in flames! Dont be put off by the PC people who feel you cant be free to express your view, dont be put off by name calling (whinger, moaner etc). It is your money they are trying to fleece you for, say what you think!
5. There are no other options. This is not a case of PocketGPS having us by the 'short and curlies' but is down to their innovation, devotion, expertise and willingness to provide such a service for our benefit (which nobody else is prepared to undertake) and I for one pray that they will continue to maintain the service to its' present high standard, even if it has to be paid for.
And in argument to your point above...er I don't think so, I think you'll find that market forces have already stepped in and many forum members have already voted with their fingers so to speak and started compling an all new FREE database.
Unfortunately I cant post the link because PGPSW keep deleting any posts that refer to it.......wonder why?
Joined: Mar 18, 2004 Posts: 789 Location: Midlands UK
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:
pushandpull wrote:
1. Have all the moaners on this site any idea of the amount of time and effort Mike Barrett and co. put into organising and maintaining the camera database - all completely voluntarily? Would any of them be prepared to give up all their free time to do the same?
It's very rude to call anyone that objects to paying for the database as a moaner, just because they do not agree with your opinion.
pushandpull wrote:
2. I forsaw the inevitablility of charging or for such an enterprise a long time ago. Such a massive undertaking as it has become needs to be run full-time.
So you are another capitalist.
pushandpull wrote:
3. I own a TTG Classic, a Garmin i3 and a Garmin Nuvi300 (my favourite) and use the PocketGPS cameras on all of them. When I first bought the TTG I made the mistake of buying the TTG camera database only to find it's nowhere near as accurate/comprehensive as the PocketGPS one! - and it's bl**dy expensive.
Perhaps you should have purchased a Drivesmart, as their commercial camera database is completely free with updates on a daily basis.
pushandpull wrote:
5. There are no other options. This is not a case of PocketGPS having us by the 'short and curlies' but is down to their innovation, devotion, expertise and willingness to provide such a service for our benefit (which nobody else is prepared to undertake) and I for one pray that they will continue to maintain the service to its' present high standard, even if it has to be paid for.
The Drivesmart database is completely free. If a commercial product can have a free database, then anyone can. It is just greed.
pushandpull wrote:
6. Like it or lump the database is going to be a paid-for service so let's stop moaning about it which will achieve nothing and instead talk about what we consider would be a fair payment and the method(s) of payment.
Another capitalist remark.
pushandpull wrote:
7. My personal opinion? - No objection to a charge BUT (a) would much prefer a two-tier option of either £2 per download OR an annual charge of £20. (b) Would prefer payment by Credit card instead of Debit card as you have no protection from the card agency with a Debit card should it get compromised.
As you seem to be desperate to give your money away, then send me a cheque for £500 as I am thinking of starting my own camera database for people with more money than sense. :D
This is the 4th time I've posted the below because the MODS keep deleting any reference to the alternative FREE site. I have removed the link from this post, so they have no excuse for deleting it this time.
.
My recent post didn't even have a link to the alternative site but it was deleted anyway. I can't tell you how much this action disgusts me.
As a Vicar I feel i am well able to give comment on issues of basic morality.
If keeping the database running was so much hard work for the pocketgps team that they feel they have to employ someone to oversee it, then they should be happy that someone else has decided to set up an alternative database.
The fact that they are removing any links to the alternative site just reinforces my feeling that the decision to charge has been made with purely profit in mind.
Shame on you, you will undoubtdly be the agents of your own downfall.
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