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Having posted as requested with a 'it dont make any differnce to me but can it be annual reply' I logged in to check if anyone had replied specifically to my post.
Reading throught the posts I came accross a post from POCKETGPSWORLD that i thought interesting (exceprts below)
"Apologies for the lateness of this reply, we have been considering our response" - great, considered is good!
"We did expect a lot of negative response on the forums, however this was the opposite of what we found with the Basingstoke event survey." - fine thats (presumably) why your asking the question here and as a commercial organisation you presumably realised that the event was a small sample size...
"Several posters are making assumptions about what others on the forum will do and many are making assumptions about what the industry will think. We have spoken to many senior representives/owners of GPS corporations and every one so far, without exception or hesitation, thought we should charge." - well they would they charge for their product - and in not charging you make them look like they are profit grabbing....!
"Many think we should have been charging a long time ago. We therefore have the support of the industry at large." - cool what about forum members, that seems a bit more trickey and the forum members are your 'customers'
"Some are also introducing made up facts and figures about our organisation, advertisers and visitors. Many seem to be taking all figures quoted as facts. We haven't spotted one correct figure that has been stated yet." - perhaps you should make them available maybe the forum members would understand the issue - this statement makes it look like your hiding something! (not saying you are just that it MAKES IT LOOK that way)
"Remember also that it's the administration time of the site as a whole that is the real issue. The database does contribute to the traffic, but it is less than 10%. The bandwidth issue is related to both the database and the site as a whole." - hmmmmm so are we saying this charge is intened to sumsidise the whole site? Some might say 'all i use is the db so why do i have to subsidise other stuff' - you REALLY need to close that objection down fast!
"Readers who wish not to pay will always have more inclination to post than those who are willing to pay or those on the fence. A 'call-to-action' poll on the back of a rally cry for action can never be a reflection of the real attitude of the majority. Not only can the poll be manipulated by deleting cookies, but I suspect the results will be skewed by the dissatisfied who would be more inclined to vote." - possibbly, but there have been a whole load of similar to mine that were quite positive but suggesting modification to make the payment easier/more palitable etc, these seem to have been ignored....
"I remember that Dave Burrows (Dave used to be our Editor in Chief before chaging jobs) said on the forums that the intention was to keep the database free " - oops i really dont think you should have said that! SO the 'intention' was a free db and people submitted data with that being a stated 'intention', i think in a commerical setting 'intention' forms contract - especially as you accepted something of value - data - form the other parties to the 'intention' and therfore you just admitted a contractual obligation - thats a very interesting legal position, if anyone was determined to persue it! - I am not but i am aware how bloody carefull you have to be!
"Because we have used the word 'professional' some are accusing of us of not saying what we mean, i.e that we are going to be commercial. We have been commercial for over 2 years now and certainly have not hid it (the adverts are a clear indication of our commercial status)." - fine dandy but the 'intention' is actually more significant because your commercial! Isnt one of the majour draws to your site the traffic cam db so people see you adverts, think of ot as marketing and advertising - certainly its got advitisers sales from my firm - and it got sales BECAUSE i had a view that the DB being free gave some credance to an authorative viewpaoint.
"We are VERY confident that the database will not only survive, but also improve in quality. This is indeed one of the driving aims behind introducing the download fee." - fine perhaps it should be stated as that rather than the stuff above about supporting the other 90% of the site, and if you loose a lot of contributors, and unarguably thats a possibility, its hard to see how that adds up.
"We also have big plans next year to make PocketGPSWorld.com even more of an authority in the industry than it is already. This obviously costs money. We have been taking it steady over the last couple of years, but are starting to get squeezed by commercial companies. Rest assured that no matter what, we will retain our independence." - err sorry how independant your commercial you come under presure from advertisers etc...independant when your 'in bed' with "We have spoken to many senior representives/owners of GPS corporations and every one so far, without exception or hesitation, thought we should charge" majour corporations to the extent when they advise you what to charge for on the reviewing web site - sorry this is begingin to sound very dubious!
"We have taken on board any contructive criticism on the thread, thank you" - great, listen to the punter!
"Also a big thank you to all who sent private messages and calls of support over the last 2 days including the following: "All of the people I have spoken to at work today think the 2 pound charge is more than acceptable, that's about 30 people I know of that use TT sat nav - they will all continue to use the service."" - sounds to me like your busy ignoring the constructive critisism!
"Due to the repetition of points being made over the last 24 hours and with some of the remarks being of a personal nature we have decided to close this thread shortly." - oh dear thats a mistake, freespeach and all that, makes it look like your hiding!
Now HERES the deal as i see it, you have advertising due to hits, largely to do with the DB, you have a LOT of hacked off customers here (percentage unknown), if you dont take care of your customers someone else WILL - indeed there are already breakaways happeneing, YOU will end up with a less vistited site, the customers will end up with worse service - precisely the people who contribute a lot will end up heading the breakaways so you will loose active participants, you will loose advertising revenue....
....all because your totaly screwing up the sales pitch on this! This isnt a b2b sale this is a punter sale, spot the objection and construct your offering to overcome them - show the value of the change, demonstrate you openness and your willingness to make it easier for the punter to take this change on board - in short behave like the 'professionals' you aspire to be, this isnt personal its business - you need to sell theis to people not mearly chuck it at people and watch the feeding frenzy! - of ciourse you may get away with it, but it has, and will continue, to cost you credibility!
Now back to my personal position, i was actually quite happy to pay an annual fee (reasonable one), I am in the industry so i know servers/sites take time to manage, bandwidth cost money etc - I may still pay - but the tone of your post plus the presumption of a poorer service as a result of lost members makes me less likely to do so...and far more likely to pay to an established company with a trackrecord....
My advice, act before its too late and at least sound as if your listening to your customers -before you loose them not becasue of what your proposing but because of the way your doing it - and yes i am quite offended by the tone of your marketing, both personaly and professionaly (as an ex salesman)...but then again you may not care...
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject:
I have posted previously explaining that we are investigating a range of payment methods, annual etc but it's understandable that it can be easily overlooked.
I will re-iterate, nothing has been decided, we are and will review every suggestion and open a new thread after Christmas to debate the optimum package etc.
We have stated that we wish to offer many value adds, easier download, easier update, verified locations etc but we have been rather taken aback by the response here and so undertandably the detailed proposals have taken a back seat. However we will strive to make a clear proposition and demonstrate the value we hope to add in due course. _________________ Darren Griffin
Last edited by Darren on Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 19/08/2002 15:39:36 Posts: 172 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject:
[Me] It does not give them ownership of the data provided to them despite their claim to copyright of it.
Quote:
the raw data *cannot* be copyright.
Yet Pocketgps claim ownwership and copyright of the data?
Quote:
What can be copyrighted is the creation of a collection of data that is presented in a certain way. The process of collection and presentation creates something new - the database. Those that did the actual creating own the copyright.
Thats true.
Quote:
Taking this database and reproducing it elswhere is no more or less than copyright theft .
True again....However if as you contend the raw data cannot be copyrighted then the raw data can be taken from the database and used for whatever purpose by anyone.
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject:
TheBoyGroucho wrote:
True again....However if as you contend the raw data cannot be copyrighted then the raw data can be taken from the database and used for whatever purpose by anyone.
Now how do you realistically expect us to respond to that?
Obviously we have taken advice on our Copyright position. It would be a mockery of any Copyright if such protection did not cater for the possibility of such a simple ruse would it not? _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: 19/08/2002 15:39:36 Posts: 172 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject:
Darren wrote:
TheBoyGroucho wrote:
True again....However if as you contend the raw data cannot be copyrighted then the raw data can be taken from the database and used for whatever purpose by anyone.
Now how do you realistically expect us to respond to that?
Obviously we have taken advice on our Copyright position. It would be a mockery of any Copyright if such protection did not cater for the possibility of such a simple ruse would it not?
It might save time if you could advise whether Pocketgps claim ownership and copyright on the data provided by the forum members or not
Ah yes, I remember it well son, it was long before your time, you're only a newbie, a mere blow in, but way back in the day, when there was a real community spirit about the place, the database used to be free once...
No, seriously, I know it's hard to believe, you don't get anything for free anymore, but it's true, ask any of the old timers, they'll tell you I speak the truth.
"So what happened" you ask, well, looking back on it it's very easy to say we should have reacted differently, maybe something could have been done you say, but son you weren't there.
The hoodwinked us, plain and simple.
Dropped the news on us not even a week before Christmas, when folk were busy with their lives, their loved ones, with the "festive season" to sooth the passions of the moment, and then .....
Nothin....
Not for days, we blindly muddled around the little news we had as best we could, then Christmas came, we ate to much, we drank to much, we spent time with our families, we gave and received gifts, we watches the news and realised how lucky we were, to live in a world with SatNav's that we all take for granted when there are far worse off people than oursleves, and what do you think happenned.
When PGPSW eventually came back to answer our questions, and discuss the issues, we were all over the shock, it was yesterday's news, and nobody had the energy to fight about it any more.
Yep, we should have seen that coming, for a crowd that claim not to be PR guru's, they handled it like pro's....
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject:
TheBoyGroucho wrote:
It might save time if you could advise whether Pocketgps claim ownership and copyright on the data provided by the forum members or not
We cannot claim copyright nor do we on the individual submissions of members but we do claim copyright on the database and its contents as a whole.
Anyone submitting data is of course free to submit that data to others but we have controls in place to identify databases that contain significant amounts of our data and our control data.
When we started we initially built up the database core from the scant information that was available in the public domain but it might be useful information to know that out of the entire safety camere database userbase, less than 700 users have ever contributed more than once which is an interesting point in itself.
What are the thoughts from those who have submitted data in the past if we were to grant them free access? _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: Dec 20, 2005 Posts: 1 Location: South West
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject:
Being a newcomer to GPS I visited this site for the first time a little over a week ago, and have neither contributed to the database nor to the forum.
I am however willing to pay for a well maintained and accurate database from GPSW (or indeed anyone else), providing I have a clear understanding of what's on offer.
Given the high level of goodwill that clearly exists/existed in this forum, I cannot understand the attitude of the directors towards the wider community.
They have failed, or so it seems to me,to address in any meaningful way many of the concearns expressed (especially by those people who have freely contributed in the past) or to add any flesh to the bones of their strategy.
Perhaps Mike, Robert, Darren and other members of the team can prepare a considered response to the issues raised and give us the detail of what they are planning.
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject:
conroyd wrote:
Ah yes, I remember it well son, it was long before your time, you're only a newbie, a mere blow in, but way back in the day, when there was a real community spirit about the place, the database used to be free once...
As you are so keen on openness, can you tell me if you have ever submitted data to our database? _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject:
Gordi wrote:
Being a newcomer to GPS I visited this site for the first time a little over a week ago, and have neither contributed to the database nor to the forum.
I am however willing to pay for a well maintained and accurate database from GPSW (or indeed anyone else), providing I have a clear understanding of what's on offer.
Given the high level of goodwill that clearly exists/existed in this forum, I cannot understand the attitude of the directors towards the wider community.
They have failed, or so it seems to me,to address in any meaningful way many of the concearns expressed (especially by those people who have freely contributed in the past) or to add any flesh to the bones of their strategy.
Perhaps Mike, Robert, Darren and other members of the team can prepare a considered response to the issues raised and give us the detail of what they are planning.
I am keen to listen as I hope others will be too.
And we will, I have explained at the top of this page that we will do so but we need time to digest the thread and prepare our detailed proposals. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject:
It would seem fairest to supply a free period (say 3 - 6 months) for those who have only ever submitted once and perhaps a year or more free for those who have submitted multiple reports?
That clears the decks and we can draw a line in the sand. We would then make it crystal clear that from a certain date the database will be charged for.
We have records of every submission and so this could be achieved albeit with a fair amount of admin.
I'm certain that we can demonstrate the pluses of remaining on board given time to actually work on it and not lurk in this thread as I have done for 2hrs solid already this afternoon! _________________ Darren Griffin
Last edited by Darren on Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hi! We see you’re using an ad-blocker. We’re fine with that and won’t stop you visiting the site.
But as we’re losing ad-revenue from this then why not make a donation towards website running costs?. Or you could disable your ad-blocker for this site. We think you’ll find our adverts are not overbearing!
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