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It wasn't meant to be helpful! Just telling it like it is. I am a grumpy geezer who takes umbridge at people wanting something for nothing. Sure, getting something for free is great & we all score on this at some point.
Whining is for girls - I repeat - go away!
I may well 'go away' but only because asking me to pay for something that I have contributed to is unethical.
I had no idea this project was planning on going commercial until I received a mail from MaFt (as I'm registered on his site too) I run mostly 'free' software on my computer. Eudora, Firefox, Open Office, The Gimp, IrfanVirw, Nvu, CDBurnerXP, TUGZip and FileZilla being the most used. This is perfectly good, indeed more than adequate for my purpose. You can donate to these projects - but they are made entirely free to end users. They are made and supported by a 'community'. If that community fragments the project is likely to fail.
I have contributed to this database in my own small way (I forgot my logon to this site as I don't post on the forum's much though which is why I have had to re-register.... ) and I really don't think the admin team (or their minority of 'supporters') do themselves any favours by appearing so condescending to the very people that have created their database.
The PGPSW site isn't only about the Database. I still think it would be more acceptable for the bulk of the site to be subsciption rather than just the Database. I personally prefer a site supported entirely by subscriptions and not have the perceived influence of 'sponsors'.
Malcolm
Yes, I agree - this is a much better way to work - for the money, you are getting much more than a database - also a whole community of knowledge.
You could still have a free community - but extras would be in the npaid section.
Alan
This is exactly what I was suggesting some posts back. I don't like paying on a per download basis, as if the file corrupts on download or I accidentally wipe it from my hard drive, I will potentially have to pay to download it again. I would definitely be in favour of a yearly subscription to a member's area of the site, particularly if you could get support here from suppliers of GPS equipement, e.g. a Tomtom forum where Tomtom themselves contribute.
are from frankly what i believe to be childish nutters
anybody who is in the position of supplying information has done so of their own free will with no obligations by either party to compensate one another from the outset for that information or the accuracy of such information.
it was supplied freely and without condition, duress or caveats for the consumption of the recipient to either include or exclude it as one see's fit.
anyway, how can one claim ownership for such information that is clearly in the public domain.
its almost like if i saw london bridge before you did, but i told you where to find it and you later wrote a book about it and charged for that book, me coming after you for my information back as you have profited from what i told you
this argument is a total no-brainer by those claiming ownership for such information what clearly from the outset doesnt belong to them anyway
Not really - someone asks for assistance on the forum with some problem. The users don't demand payment for giving advice. The information is carefully obtained by the members and handed over to PGPSW to be shared.
The information has been carefully gathered, logged and handed over in good faith. Now someone wants to make a buck on the back of the work provided by those members who have done their work for nothing.
Let's just take this to the extreme - and suppose everyone said that they would only supply the information in return for payment? The only alternative is for PGPSW to collect data on each and every camera in the UK and Europe themselves - every month. It's not workable.
Plus - there is the added problem that if you are selling the information - then there is an expectation of accuracy. If there are missing speed cameras, can I have my money back? If I get snapped by a speed camera not shown on the database, can I sue for the cost of my fine?
Charging for the information which people have voluntarily supplied on the basis it is shared for others is going to open many many more problems.
If the cost of hosting the file the problem - then I am sure there are plenty of others willing to host the file.
Joined: 19/08/2002 15:39:36 Posts: 172 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject:
How about an agreement for a copy of the data (as is at the last download) to be made available to forum members (those who originally produced the data), to maintain and update in whatever amateurish manner they see fit. While Pocketgps develope whatever commercial plans they have for the database.
Those who wanted a less reliable but free service could join the amateurs, those who want a more professional service and support Pocketgps at the same time could pay for their downloads from Pocketgps.
While I don't object to a charging model I think charging £2.00 PER DOWNLOAD is a massive, massive, massive mistake on the part of PocketGPS world.
One of the most important things is to be able to keep your camera database up to date, charging per download would massively discourage this. Instead of updating once a month I'll update once every 6 months, if that. It would also discourage me from providing any updates.
I would strongly recommend a year long subscription model, a price of say £20 for a year would be fair.
The current charging model is about the worst possible way you could have done it
Looks like a tryout of the new CheckPOInt software is on that cards, now that the version 5 stuff is available.
So, only £150 quid for a Garmin - where can get one of those for free?
Would you consider starting a new database - I will join once you have it up & running.
You must be the only peron on the driving planet that does not exceed the speed limit inadvertantly. I think I detect a holier than thou attitude.
1. You can't get them free - I bought it for nav, as I drive a lot to places I've not been before.
2. I might, I probably wouldn't. One or more of the web designers and programmers that work for me might though. I certainly wouldn't stop them.
3. I only suggested a way of looking after your license that costs nothing, believe me, I do not subscribe to that method myself and am fully equipped with everything that is legal to detect cameras and speedtraps.
Gents, Laides etc - I am not a moderator, but please can we keep this on-topic - we are about to hit 40 pages and about 5 of those have been taking a pop at other community members.
I am still concerned that the Limited Company has not responded fully to all th equestions asked, but seems willing to ridicule some members who have suggested figures.
Give us the figures, that will help silence those who make them up, help those who do not know them understand your thought processes and probably more importantly bring around a few of us doubting Thomas's _________________ iPhone5, TomTom, Google maps, Navfree, Viewranger and Apple Maps (ekk)
Joined: Nov 06, 2005 Posts: 48 Location: Shropshire
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:52 am Post subject:
I think that any cost will force the database out into P2P land. E.g. a quick search threw up 30 'UK speed trap' lists, and I don't see how this could be prevented. At the end of the day its just a bunch of coordinates so could not be copyrighted etc. it would not take much to recreate elsewhere but without the robust network or submitters/users to keep it current.
This would fragment the current submitting family (yes I believe this to be a bigger issue than a few quid, its about community spirit). If the subject had been debated more widely earlier (and not this rambling forum where we are all getting hot under the collar about an aparrent fait acomplis (excuse my French and nested parentheses)) perhaps the result would be the same i.e. a small charge, but handled more sensitively and openly it would be possibly be widely accepted after discussion?
As you can see by my low post count i am bout the newest member on here. Before buying my tom tom i did loads of research and found the speed cam database on this site.
If i had known 2 months later it was going to be a paid download i might have chosen a different product, as i only bought sat nav to replace a stolen laser detector.
I would be prepared to pay a pound a download in advance for a years downloading, but at £2 i might just not bother.
Espacially as the Gov announced this week they will not be putting any more speed cameras up.
The point I was trying to make, is that contributing to the database shouldn't necessarily mean being exempt from paying for it. You're still receiving more information than you're providing.
Let's face it, the one's that you know about, you would slow down for anyway. It's the one's you're unfamiliar with that catch you out.
That's my view anyway, as a relative noob to all this POI gubbins. and a recent donator to PGSPW.
Yes but the ones YOU know many others dont. And what they contribute helps you because you dont know.
Sure you will always get more than you put in , thats the way it is, but without those two that you do put in in your neighbourhood some stranger will get caught out.
I can't believe how tight some of the people posting here are...
When I first found this site, I was amazed that the datasbase was free.
It's all very well to moan about it, but you're not the ones spending the time and effort to keep it up to date, develop tools to upload, etc.
What to YOU contribute to the greater good for free? I bet most of the people complaining don't spend hours developing and maintaining a website that is only providing a service for others and not for gain???
If you get caught by a speed camera, you get a fine and points on your licence.
Paying a couple of quid is nothing in comparisson.
Bring on the charge, PocketGPS World. The database is worth it...
Bring on the charge, PocketGPS World. The database is worth it...
I wonder how many people have read all 40 pages so far. I have, read the first 25 in one sitting, then kept up since.
It sems to me that not many people have an issue with the value, or the price, or the payment method, it's the princple....
If it was a new, original, safety camera database launched at £2 a download it would be a market winner, great value for money.
But that is missing the point some tho', or to be more accurate, deflecting the point.
A community gets together to share information in a format that can be easily distributed, and one member of that community volunteers to maintain, compile and host the data.
If that member then decides it's too much work, the data should go back to where it came from, up for a vote, and a new community member should be chosen to accept the ongoing work.
It's simply not up for discussion that the chosen volunteer can start to charge for it.
There are lots of questions here, and many people simply choose to only see one or two of them.
Some have an isssue with the price, the price structure or the payment method.
Others have an issue with the principle.
But stand back. "it is important to see distant things as if they were close and to take a distanced view of close things". — Miyamoto Musashi
Let's not get too bogged down on each of the finer points such as how much value for money we are getting, but let's also not forget there is a bigger picture here.
And while each person in this debate may not see the issues from exactly the same perspective, that should not negate any one perspective, or lessen it's value.
There are a lot of issues here, a lot of questions have been asked and should be answered.
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) and I really don't think the admin team (or their minority of 'supporters') do themselves any favours by appearing so condescending to the very people that have created their database.
