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As a "newbie" to this site (only regd today been reading for a few months)it seems that the commercialisation of PGPSW is going to be its undoing as many have said.
Anyway my thoughts are this:
So PGPSW are going to profit of the back of the very people that got them to this stage,now i dont know if ,when you submit a location your details are noted as u being the one to have subbed that location,now if this is the case then i think it only fair that PGPSW should maybe "purchase" each location submitted from the person/s that submitted it.
As what happens in the commercial world things have price tags, so to keep in with the PGPSW's labour type motions i think that as "We" are submitting information to a commercial venture (read PGPSW) it should only be right that "Our" information is purchased from us for use in this commercial venture,be it for data already supplied or for new locations.
Its a shame that this has happend but i agree with everyone when they say no to paying a charge to download data that has been supplied for free by PGPSW members (Ex??) and also no to paying to use the website and or its content,that is a sure way to discourage new members when they see they have to pay just to view etc.
There seems to be sites already in place to take over the camera db and i think should the chargeing go ahead the people with other sites in place will draw away all of the disgruntled members from this very place,and in my eyes that would be a good thing,at least the members can continue to submit there info safe in the knowledge that its not being sold commercialy just to line there (pgpsw) pockets,
Maybe as a new member my posting is a bit harsh but it just seems to be such a shame that a well established place is going to nail its own lid CLOSED.
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: Well said BunnyBallerina
I think the database should be kept free or at least a CHEAP yearly subscription, why wreck an execelent service, especailly as now with the release of POIcapture when people are sending in new sighting of cameras, does this been you are going to pay people each time they contribute to the database, if so i have two new sighting for you.
I am extremely surprised not to see a reaction (if only to defend his ground) from Mike Barrett.
I'm amazed at that too, but also amazed that in 20+ pages nobody of seniorority at PGPSW has replied! 8O
Especially odd, given that we know they are watching as we speak, Bo Peep, mikealder, Privateer, robbrady....
Perhaps this post would be better off-topic, maybe it will be deleted who knows, but I've all this talk about professional or commercial got me thinking.
PocketGPSWorld is already a commercial entity, it's a private limited company, Company No. 04945574, with a last retern date of 28/10/2005, although no accounts were made up due to a Small Excemption.
It will be interesting to have a look at the books which are public record, have a look at what salaries are being paid and what difference the nominal administration fee of £2 a download for the safety camera database has on the return due 25/11/2006.
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 628 Location: West Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject:
Ok - I've been watching the discussion for a while...................
Polling a the GPS event was a mistake in the first place - People who take the time and effort to go to these events are your devout supporters. Not the majority of your visitors. An open discussion on how this could have been approached here on the site would have been far more sensible and would have gone down better with the online community - It would have probably gained more positive support.
Financially I hope you haven't assumed that the majority will contribute the money to your enterprise? the reality will be very different as you will now be evaluated alongside every other product on the market and you will loose a lot of the support that the free database enjoyed.
Thinking that being cheaper will make this product better value and more attractive is not necessarily the case as your accuracy will no doubt suffer from the lack of support (one man cannot replace hundreds) it will affect what is currently a fantastic database.
Don't be surprised if another free database pops up in competition.
In summary I would tread carefully as this may turn out to be a serious mistake, not only for the database but for the site as a whole.
As for my personal view..... I will reserve that for when the proposed cost has been either been set out or abolished. I will then consdier all my options before paying any money out to anyone.
I am totally astounded by the majority of opinions on here. Surely the whole point about sending in camera data is to be part of a movement of people who don't agree with the things. To this end we should all be working together. It is IMHO absolutely, totally unreasonable to expect people who create a site like this to manage it and sustain it without recompense, even though these things have a habit of growing out of control. Take two examples: Metcheck.com - started by enthusiasts for the weather. It now charges around £10 *per month* for the premium services. If you need the info they provide - you'll pay for it. Another one is pepipoo.com which helps us motorists when we do get caught by the cameras. The free forums are flooded out with people asking the same questions over and over. As the site has gained popularity this has overwhelmed the regular contributors, and by and large it is impossible for them to provide any sort of meaningful information service to individuals BUT there is a paid "member" forum that charges £30 per year. For that you just get member forum access. The long time members help the newcomes for no reward, but the newcomers prepared to pay get better service because there are fewer of them. The money raised goes to the website team and helps to fund important legal appeals. I say to all you lot who are bitching, go to your new forum There are only a couple of hundred of you anyway. Those people who live in the real world where anything worth having isn't free will pay for the downloads if we think they are value for money AND we will submit data for no reward, because the bigger fight is against the cameras themselves. I am sure when the original "It will remain free" statement was made, it was made in good faith, but running a site like this takes time and effort, and it is inevitable when a site becomes successful that the time and effort eventually exceeds the time available as a "hobby". As soon as that happens, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You either shut up shop and get your life back, or you look for ways to buy the time and effort from someone else. I really don't believe this situation was created by devious planning. IMHO it was enthusiasm coupled with an element of naivity (sp?) in the early days that assumed the site could be constrained within "hobby" parameters. A glance at the adverts down the RHS of this page show you that this can no longer be the case. Ads bring recommendations bring more ads bring visitors and this has obviously become a commercial site. To those people simplistically multiplying out numbers, I say you haven't got a clue. Before you know it when you turn commercial (and yes, professional and commercial are the same - think of musicians or sportsmen) you have VAT, NI, public liability insurance, business rates etc etc etc to start thinking about, let alone all the other business expenses. Before long a turnover of £100K that sounds big money is eaten away and its hard to take a wage. Jeez!
VAT only applies if your turn over 60k plus, and then you charge it and pass it on, cash accounting, after you have collected it, and you get to deduct your output VAT from you input VAT so it's no hardship and in actually works for you.
NI Class 2 is £2.10 a week, and Class 4 is 8% for the first 30k (ish) and the 1% over, so that pinches a small bit, but what can you do.
Public liability insurance will set you back £349 a year, and give you 1 or 3 mil professional and 10mil public, and it's a profesional deduction so it reduced your tax bill anyway.
Business rates don't come into it if you are based from home, and you can even charge a % of your home running costs, including insurance, rates, water heating etc against tax. I doubt PGPSW will hire premises for a single full time employee!
No matter how you look at it 100k is a very reasonable target turnover for a SOHO SME, and it leaves you FAR FAR better off than you would be working for somebody else...
Joined: 05/01/2003 10:51:57 Posts: 118 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject:
Well, i've used the database for a long time, ive uploaded cameras to it and ive wondered how long before you had to buy it (it was inevitable)and how much i'd be willing to pay for this data.
I dont object to a nominal charge but what if, just if, there are 2 new cameras added to the database, both nowhere near i either live or have reason to travel to. I'd be a bit miffed to be honest. OK, its only a couple of quid but what if thats the situation for 6 downloads.. Mounts up and i'm not getting anything of benefit...But, to pay a yearly or lifetime subscription would be more suitable in my opinion. The database could be made into an exe and there are numerous copy protection systems that rely on a "fingerprint" of the ipaq the database is being used on. Ask tomtom for example!! Or POIwarner, both use a hardware fingerprint ID system to prevent copying.
Also, updating 1 camera allows you to one free download. Has to be a new camera though and verified.
Anyway, my thoughts...
Cornz.
VAT only applies if your turn over 60k plus, and then you charge it and pass it on, cash accounting, after you have collected it, and you get to deduct your output VAT from you input VAT so it's no hardship and in actually works for you.
NI Class 2 is £2.10 a week, and Class 4 is 8% for the first 30k (ish) and the 1% over, so that pinches a small bit, but what can you do.
Public liability insurance will set you back £349 a year, and give you 1 or 3 mil professional and 10mil public, and it's a profesional deduction so it reduced your tax bill anyway.
Business rates don't come into it if you are based from home, and you can even charge a % of your home running costs, including insurance, rates, water heating etc against tax. I doubt PGPSW will hire premises for a single full time employee!
No matter how you look at it 100k is a very reasonable target turnover for a SOHO SME, and it leaves you FAR FAR better off than you would be working for somebody else...
100% agree, you describe a business model exactly. The question is what do you do with something when it is too big to be a hobby? close the door or turn it into a business? If you decide to turn it into a business, there ain't no point creating a model that is just designed to cover costs!
Fair point, and it is a very viable business proposition, perfect fit marketing strategy, existing product to existing customers.
The PR was a bit of a disaster mind, last thing you ever really want to do is of your existing customers, 5 times easier to retain a customer than to find a new one. !!
And customers can be so fickle.
Honesty, best policy, always.
Hey, crimbo, if the Dixons and Comet's and Argos's are anything to go by, then the number of SatNav's under the norway spruce this year will be phenominal, and with all those lovely new toys, plenty of people will be willing to pay £2 for a few extra whistles and bells.
But it is public record that Mike Barret is the director of PGPSW, and has now appointed himself as the first full time employee, and decided to start charging for the database.
give you that!! I think the reaction was underestimated. Hopefully it'll result in a model that suitably rewards camera submitters whilst making those people who submit nothing but use the DB pay the full fee. That's what I'd do anyway.
But it is public record that Mike Barret is the director of PGPSW, and has now appointed himself as the first full time employee, and decided to start charging for the database.
Or is that the bit that got my post deleted ?
Post the info on the "Other" Forum then ;)
For my 2 cents, I dont mind paying a "Site Membership" fee - provided the site content is drastically improved to compete with the other sites out there. But charging for a database compiled from the goodwill of forum members stinks.
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i think that as "We" are submitting information to a commercial venture (read PGPSW) it should only be right that "Our" information is purchased from us for use in this commercial venture,be it for data already supplied or for new locations.
of your existing customers, 5 times easier to retain a customer than to find a new one. !!
