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Joined: Dec 06, 2003 Posts: 335 Location: North Surrey (TW17) UK
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject:
First I must say that I have no objection whatsoever to contributing to the cost of this excellent website. I suggested this back in the days when a PGPS meet was a few people in the bar of a pub. I personally have benefitted greatly from the site and the forums over and above the camera database, which incidentally I treat the same way as I do TomTom, as a guide, not something written in stone.
I must say though that the PGPS Moderators do appear to have shot themselves well and truly in the foot, and I think it is all down to presentation.
I totally agree that the site has grown to the stage that it surely needs a full time administrator, and I also accept that the major contributors who donate MAJOR amounts of their time and skills for the benefit of all should have some form of recompense for there efforts. I'd be surprised if voluntary contribution would work, how many users of Neil's postcode program for TT3 sent him a donation?
However, I think the approach of charging for the database smacks to much of the easy option. I'm sure that if Mike had posted a message to the effect that changes were needed for the overall good of the site, and to cover this the SITE would have to start to charge a subscription fee for membership, it would not have attracted anywhere near the amount of criticism that the current proposal has. The site could be read only for non members, and membership would allow downloading rights as well as posting rights. To those who object to paying for something they feel they have contributed to, don't forget that what we currently download is greatly enhanced from the basic location files (Thanks Oldie). Why not allow the downloading of the RAW data free of charge to those who have uploaded a contribution, and make the ENHANCED database files members only.
The other aspect of a subscription site could be to reduce the sites dependence on paid adverts from suppliers who appear to have a less than perfect reputation. Finally, since Basingstoke meet demonstrated how this market has grown, why not hive off the exhibition side into a commercial enterprise? They could have more structured question and answer forums as part of a larger trade show. _________________ Go740L App 9.510 Europe 985.8155
RDS_TMC mount
Home 2.8.3.2499 Win10 Home
I get the impression some of those whom are willing to pay have never submitted cameras/updates or do not understand the concept that the database would "ALWAYS be FREE" ??
and why are people proposing new/alternative ways to pay for the database ?
alternative methods for funding the site, yes, but not OUR database
if PGPS mods can't hack it, then deligate, there are probably a sh*t load of "reliable" members out there willing help, as in confirming cameras in their own area that have been submitted by others...
I know I would but ONLY if it remains free with a binding statement confirming the same[/b] _________________ SW
Joined: Feb 20, 2004 Posts: 6 Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject:
monsta45 wrote:
when i had an old bluemedia unit i had POI warner on it, POI Handler only charge £8pa for their service inc speed cams??! does anyone know how acurate this is compared to the service here? its if as good, which to honest i cant tell either way, then just use them instead!
What about this for a suggestion? Do what the open source community does in this situation, and 'fork the codebase'. Open source the database as at 31st December. Make it freely available in a standard form (lat/long, OV2 or whatever) and then split it. In that way, any individuals who wish to try to maintain and enhance a community database can do so by using the 31st December data as a starting point - and you can effectively compete with Tom-Tom etc, by producing your own maintained/validated/researched commercial offering at whatever price point you choose
This is an excellent suggestion which would seem to solve all the problems. PGPSW start off on an even keel with whoever takes on managing the open source one, and the contributors who brought the database to where it is today don't feel aggrieved. In time, the PGPSW database should be improved by manual validation of the camera sites, then people may perceive a "value add" that they can obtain by paying for the PGPSW commercial product. If the members of this community continue to contribute to the open-source version, we could have real competition in the marketplace, which after all is what business is all about. The current approach seems far too monopolistic, kind of "we've got the database and now we're going to start charging, and you'll pay because there's nothing that's better"
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: How much bandwith is this thread using
I think the bandiwth this thread is using alone could pay for around 1000 downloads !!
I think the PGPS team will NOT charge for the database after these reactions, if they do then it is the end of the database as it will appear on other sites. One way to get around the copyright issue is for people to submit the existing pocketgps cameras to this new site and that way there is no breach of copyright as this is how the original database was compiled - surely PGPS realise that their advertising revenue would be reduced significantly if people start going to other sites to download that data ?
Joined: Jan 23, 2005 Posts: 28 Location: Feering,Essex,UK
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: Camera Database downloads
How many downloads are done each month ?
If we must pay for the camera database then perhaps pocketgps can say how many updates are in each new edition.
If the rise in new cameras does decline, then it won't always be worth downloading regularly.
This excerpt from MikeB's post of the 19th suggests that there is a newly released database (ie the last free one). However I have just downloaded it and find that it is identical to the one I downloaded on 1st Dec. This of course means that when people downloaded the database when it was 1st posted. they were already unknowingly downloading the LAST FREE DATABASE.
At every step of the way, we seem to have been even further deceived! _________________ Regards
The title still cracks me up 'Speed Camera Database to Turn Professional'
ROFL
'Commercial' you mean't 'Commercial' so just say it instead of hiding behind something else
No ChrisCubed, they are turning Professional. Today they have just been ripping us off as a Hobby but very soon they will be ripping us off PROFESSIONALLY.
All these words and more sum up my feelings on PGPSW's announcement to start charging for what was always touted to remain as a free database.
Everything I could say has already been said in the preceding pages. However I will say just a couple of things.
1) I firmly believe PGPSW are making a huge mistake and are effectively shooting themselves in the foot. Run a poll that has 'Will you continue to contribute to the database after the chare is in place?' with Yes and No answers and see what happens. The majority will vote No. Your contributions will drop drastically. Virtually fact.
2) There is no real reason why PGPSW would charge for our database other then greed. They have finally plucked up the balls to start charging for it. Something they could have done at any time, I guess it has now come to the point where they fully realise how much potential money they could make and greed has taken over. The issue of bandwidth has never been a problem for this site in all the years its been in operation. I don't believe for a second it has anything to do with bandwidth or hosting costs. £2 from every user every month, PGPSW will be rich beyond belief! I only wish they had the guts to admit they are making this move to make money primarily.
Alas, if it is the decision they wish to make then so be it. Nothing we say will change their minds now that they realise how much money they can make.
The only good that will come out of this is that as one great free database falls, another will rise. Watch as more sites pop up offering free user contributed databases. It will only take one to become popular enough and the focus will soon shift from PGPSW to this new site.
PGPSW are naive if they think that there databases won't now start appearing on P2P sites and applications. What will they do about that? Major companies, games developers, music industry etc. have failed to combat this, what hope would PGPSW have? They wouldn't. You'll still be able to get the PGPSW free every month through these mediums, you watch.
And my final comment on this.
Know this PGPSW, you yourselves, are now no different to the robbing eBay sellers who continue to sell the database on eBay. Do not deny or believe for a second you are doing anything different.
I couldnt have put it better myself
Just to add a couple of views
If you look at the timeframe, I think this is going to go ahead anyway, regardless of what the members think or want
even if by some strange happening this doesnt go ahead, will people continue to send updates etc or will they think in the back of their minds about this and will it occur again
The owners and admin are being strangly quiet on this thread, I wonder why ?
I honestly think its time that the members on here got thier heads together and got another site up and running to continue the FREE database
I do believe this is the end of PGPSW they have effectively killed theirselves with this, people will have now lost all confidence in them, yes i know new users are coming along all the time, but as soon as any new site gets up and running, it wont take them long to find it
Its gonna happen folks.....time to cut your losses I think
RIP Pocketgpsworld _________________ HP hx4700, Tom Tom bluetooth, Seidio mount
The title still cracks me up 'Speed Camera Database to Turn Professional'
ROFL :lol:
'Commercial' you mean't 'Commercial' so just say it instead of hiding behind something else :roll:
It will never be commercially viable now that the government announced that it plans to prevent police and camera partnerships from installing new cameras. Of course there will be a flurry of new cameras before the ban is enforced, and then maybe 1 or 2 'essential' installations, plus those at roadworks (they're well signposted anyway, so not really necessary in the database). After that NO NEW CAMERAS!
How can it be commercially viable when there is nothing new to download?
Just don't speed through roadworks- Job Done! _________________ Regards
Joined: 20/04/2003 11:51:10 Posts: 405 Location: Dorset, England, Great Britain
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: Drive With Due Care And Attention
I have just recovered my Road Angel from the gash bin, dusted it off and have been using it for the past two days. Not to many cameras here in Dorset, but I do average 2,000 miles a week on my courier travels. Still have a clean licence since 1972. (Retired)
Joined: Nov 22, 2004 Posts: 137 Location: Somerset, UK
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject:
I wonder how long it will take the GPS software suppliers to become hostile to PGPS now that they are proposing to become a commercial competitor in the provision of camera data?
I imagine they have supported large POI files knowing it will boost sales to users who knew of this free database.
TomTom and the other software suppliers could very easily alter their software so they 'unlicenced' POI files are limited to a small number of entries - ie 200, this would wipe out competition for speed camera data, without impacting 'normal' personal use of POIs at all.
Obviously when PGPS was a free community project, doing this would be very unpopular and a commercial risk for TomTom who might lose customers through it, however if PGPS is just a commercial competitor, then why wouldn't they stamp them out, or at least charge them licencing to provide the database in the 'supported' format ?
TomTom now have such a dominant market position, this is something which they must be considering, as it would hugely increase their speed camera subcription revenue ?
It would be great if the PGPSW team had the courtesy to respond to this topic from the community and allow us all to make the decision of do we stay here and pay or split of and build a bigger and better FREE community.
I am sure that if the team reverse their decision we will find it in our hearts to forgive them, as has been said before the team have given a lot over the last few years and everyone is allowed the occasional mistake.
I hope they do the correct thing because it would be so simple for the take over and if the php mySQL stuff is written correctly we could even add in an additional set of code to collect traffic hotspots which would warn of a known daily tailbacks to warn visitors to an area of junctions to either avoid or plan extra time.
I would not pay for the PGPSW download, or to access this forum but I would happily be a regional checker (central Scotland) for a new site and assist where possible.
Lets hope this is not the end of PGPSW but we should all bookmark the new site just incase PGPSW 's plug is pulled.
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