Speed Camera Database to Turn Professional

Drewzel · Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject:

Hi there,

Nooooooooooooooooooooo..................a sad day indeed. I can see the arguments from both sides but I cannot get the feeling out of my mind that this suggestion has reared its ugly head about a fortnight after the launch of the POICapture utility......coincidence....methinks not!

I pretty much agree with everything that has been said throughout this topic .....FWIW I feel that charging either a fixed annual fee OR a per-download fee for the camera database ALONE is not the right way to go. I agree with the idea of having a site membership subscription which would allow access to all downloads/reviews, (just some ideas) .....and STILL allow for that feeling of belonging to a "community" whereby each one of us can benefit from the expertise (and independence) of each other.

Just my thoughts (at present).......

Regards,

Andrew
_________________
Regards,

Andrew

Andycambs · Regular Visitor Joined: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 68

screech · Occasional Visitor Joined: Dec 19, 2005 Posts: 1

I am very sad to see a decision has been made to charge for the database and I registered with the forum specifically to say this. I cannot see me paying for this database. While as a free database it is excellent and with the new POI Capture software it should get even better, in its current model it is a database built by its users. This also means that its users are also responsible for removing “dead” cameras. I have seen many fixed cameras disappear from the database even though they very much still exist! A whole load from one area disappeared from the database. We mustn’t forget that the police (and more importantly the Camera Safety Partnerships) are very keen to catch us motorists and it doesn’t take much for them to setup a whole load of users and submit “dead” cameras. I have no proof of this but if I am going to have to pay for anything I would rather pay for a database where all sites are checked and verified.

I know of several other people using this database and I can’t see them paying either. £2 / £20 whichever way you want to look at it is too expensive and too cheap. It’s too much for something that was free, and too cheap to compete against the professionally collated databases from the likes of TomTom.

I hope it doesn’t take too long for someone else to come up with something that really will always be free…

I shall certainly be looking at alternatives.

soweezy · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:02 am Post subject:

I think PGPSW are (conveniently) confusing "professional" with "commercial"

nice try though...

BTW, what happened to "the safety camera database will always be free" ?
_________________
SW

Garmin Zumo 390LM

JonnyW · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 16, 2005 Posts: 39

Would it be possible to get a pole on this site and ask the real majority of people if the charge is a good idea?

Asking a few people who turned up at a meet if the charge is a good idea is - in my view - Tony Blair style decision making. Asking hardcore followers for their support in a decision and then steamrolling it through without the consideration of other peoples opinions who support and use the service provided from here.

I think it's a mistake. Like somebody said earlier, you're leaving it open to people sending in incorrect information to deliberately damage the database integrity and with something this large, rectifying the problem will prove extremely difficult, if not impossible. This would then leave people asking if your charge was worth paying for a database with no solid reliability.

Unfortunately, there are some people who would do this - obviously ruining it for everybody. Evil or Very Mad

cantgetlost · Frequent Visitor Joined: Nov 14, 2005 Posts: 291

Due to the announcement I feel I have to point out that I have Copyright on my user name Cantgetlost and I claim Copyright on all posts under that name.
As you are changing to a for profit operation and the forum is closely linked I feel that this has been done without due respect for people offering free advice or guidance on the site.
If you want people to pay it is only right that you pay for input that has helped build your site to the point where you now find that you can make some kind of paying business from the site.
You either need to offer payment to forum contributor's or restart the forums with new rules. I would suggest that all, other forum contributor's also claim copyright on their user names and postings. PLEASE Remove all our posts guys and start again or pay up!!!!!!!

tals · Regular Visitor Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 66

To give a slightly more positive slant Smile

I don't grab the camera database that often - no major need I could never 100% guarantee it anyway but it does give a good idea.

£2 a download doesn't seem that expensive - so as and when I would have normally grabbed it I can't see myself being too concerned at that price. I see lots of mention of no issue with £20 a year but having a problem with £24 a year - have I missed something?

What does concern me is I can see no inclination for people whatsoever to now keep the database up to date. In the poll that was taken - did anyone in the poll actually contribute to the database and if so what was the consensus on whether they would continue?

Tals

AlanK · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:17 am Post subject:

Was just wondering that myself - if you could set up polls on this forum.

Also exactly what was pointed out earlier.

You asked a collection of people who either lived in a certain part of the country and had the spare time to attend or were at a level of interest where GPS is worth the travel (very general sumary I know, sorry) Does this actually reflect the user base in its entirety?

Asked out of context I think £2 is not unreasonable. However put it into the larger picture where you start considering the points raised here (Good Will, Copyright, Broken Promises, £250,000!!, number of people submitting/updates, life expectancy etc) then I am not so sure the answer is the same.

I agree tho that we seem to be dweling on Bandwidth where as thats not the whole picture, but introducing a fee should solve that problem in itself!

Internet 101
How to send your site down the Pan... ;o)

Also I had read the full details and see that you will have your own special team working on this but there is no way that can possibly match the input from Joe Public. All thats going to happen is certain areas where you get to 'might' be more accurate than they are now yet others (e.g. out here in the sticks) are stuffed.

I saw the other site mentioned above and it was more than apparent where/why it sprang up - look out for others soon I would imagine, unfortunately that in itself is going to further dilute what you have here.

AK

JonnyW · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 16, 2005 Posts: 39

tals · Regular Visitor Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 66

That would be an easy solution tbh - a form of credit system based on Camera's either verified or added to the database. I'm sure they have thought about it.

Tals

craiga · Pocket GPS Verifier Joined: Dec 14, 2005 Posts: 20

I think the site is fantastic & the database is great. I've just had my Navman for 3 weeks. In Navman's blurb they talk about your site & the free database & POI's, effectively using your site to sell their products. They also link from the Navman site to yours.
They should be approached about sharing some of the costs.
I don't have a problem with a one off charge & would prefer that to messing about with cards every month.

zaa · Occasional Visitor Joined: Dec 19, 2005 Posts: 1

The discussion about per download or yearly monthly weekly can go on forever. Whatever you decide it can also be costly to administer. I would like to propose another option which I think is more in keeping with the values of people using the site. Make it voluntary.

Members can pay whatever they like, whenever they like. If you have just been saved from a massive speeding fine I'd have no problem donating £10-£20 even if I didn't download an update. Others might like to pay per download. The point is that everyone can choose to do what they wish. If we are not giving enough as a community just tell us. If we still don't give enough then put in a formal charging system.

You will need to make some changes to the site to explain the charging method and to make it very easy to give.

zaa

Spudson · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:44 am Post subject:

Thought I'd add my thoughts on the subject.

Phew - what a flamer!!! I've never seen a subject develop so quickly, with so many posts! Anyhow, back to my own observations:

1 - Maintaining impartiality - I've been an active user of this website for approx. 1 year and have gotten value from the reviews, discussions and information that PGPSW have made available. From your meetings with TomTom to visiting and illustrating how TeleAtlas compile information, it has become quite a professional operation for what was originally an amateur operation. I question whether you'll be able to maintain this impartiality when you begin to encroach upon the very services that the GPS Hard/Software providers offer.

2 - Copyright - I seem to remember seeing a TV program about Ordnance Survey/A-Z Maps where they have phantom entries to proove that where someone is using their information, they can rely on these entries to proove ownership. Does this mean that subscribers will get the odd site now and then?

3 - Ownership of information - By acquiring the location of camera sites through voluntary submissions, the value you add to this process is by collating the information together and distributing it. I find it difficult to understand how people can object to one charge or another for this. However, it is imperative that you have a process in place that ensures that the information is verified and validated before its inclusion/deletion to/from the database. This also requires you to verify the validity of the original data - good luck on this!!

4 - Charging policy - Personally, if the issues are not confined to the download/maintenance of the Speed Camera database, why not develop a membership model - where people pay for access to the latest news, reviews and other such things, as well as the camera database - as at least the funding is linked to the whole service (and not just the popular bits).

Hope this helps add to the general discussion...

S

Drewzel · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:52 am Post subject:

Hello again..........

Just one more thought......i thought one of the ideas behind the POICapture utility (and the uploading of said files) was to make the administration of the camera database much more streamlined.Whilst i would not (and do not) complain about the people who administer this site (in their own time and for no financial gain).

I believe (in my own humble opinion) that to raise the issue now of bandwidth/administration of the camera database i(n order to justify the charging for said database) is clumsy to say the least. I do not object to paying (per se), though I feel a site membership subscription would be a preferred model (see previous post) for me. There would appear to be some lame excuses being trotted out (at this time) in order to justify charging.

The camera database is community driven and therefore where money is involved the community as a whole should benefit...ie the people providing the information, not just those collating it.....otherwise where is the incentive to continually update? Currently this is done as a "service" and to "benefit" other users......if charging for this information (alone) is implemented thern I would agree with other posters in that there is likely to be a vast reduction in updated information being submitted to the site.

Just a few more thoughts .....(up to present).....
_________________
Regards,

Andrew

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