Discussion: Are free nav apps killing satnav?

wrinklyninja · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 21, 2006 Posts: 51

I think this discussion is becoming a little muddy in respect of what I believe was originally asked.

Why all the comments about screen size.? You know what the screen size of your phone is so you either like it or not. It's got nothing at all to do with software. I am surprised that some people want to comment about positioning of phones. There are dozens of mounts out there that will easily emulate a PND mount (Don't think you can beat Brodit)

The real discussion should be a comparison between free apps (Google etc) and paid for apps (TomTom, Sygic etc)

I am not a fan of any app that needs a data connection. Too risky for serious navigation purposes so I avoid them.

Of the paid for apps I reckon that they all do just as good a job as the PND. In fact most of them have an almost identical GUI to the PND. I regularly use my smartphone as my primary device for travelling to, from and across Europe and don't have a problem.

However, having said all that, not all smartphones are created equal and I would definitely recommend a higher end spec of phone for serious use. I tried a HTC Wildfire once and although it worked well enough most of the time it did have a habit of losing signal at inopportune times. This required a reboot to rectify. I currently use an HTC Desire HD which is great for serious use.

A little word of caution gleaned from a police officer. Avoid suction mounts for windscreens. Apparently thieves look for the telltale sucker marke and then break into the vehicle on the off chance the PND is in the glovebox.

ranger_6 · Occasional Visitor Joined: Dec 19, 2005 Posts: 31

From a Smartphone perspective (iphone 4) I've tried using google maps and co-pilot - neither have given me any form of confidence in their capability so I've always gone back to my TomTom for 'proper' navigation. Having a PND and my Yorkshire roots meant I only briefly considered buying the TT app.

For me the itinerary functionality is essential - being able to plot a journey via specific points is vital on a few events each year, so when I heard they were removing that function I managed to get one of the last models. If they ever get round to putting itinerary planning on an iphone app I may consider it.

For me the freebies have a long way to go before they'd replace a PND

laidlawbob · Occasional Visitor Joined: Dec 28, 2004 Posts: 15

From my experience, the software is not the issue. It is the hardware.

I have tried running two free apps (Navfree & Waze) on my Galaxy ace. (For those who don't know, it is a low end Android phone.)

I found the following
At full volume, it is difficult to hear.
Even plugged in, the battery drains and I guess it would last less than three hours.
It is easy to touch the screen and screw everything up.
The screen is on the small side.

Perhaps when my PND finally dies it would make sense to upgrade to a better phone rather than buying another PND but in the meantime I will stick with my TOm TOM GO Classic which is working perfectly well.

So for me whether the app is free or paid for is irrelevant.
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Laidlaw Bob

Juniper · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:47 am Post subject:

wrinklyninja · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 21, 2006 Posts: 51

Agree completely. I don't believe that many people compare like with like. They quite often expect a £50 phone to work as well as a dedicated PND which is being a bit unrealistic when considering processor power, screen size and quality of mount etc.
As I mentioned before, a good quality phone coupled with a good mount and 'paid for' software and you have a great satnav that will be with you everywhere you go.
This leads to the issue which is quite often ignored about the benefit of smartphone satnavs. You only have to carry one device!!!. This a great boon when walking in major cities

navtrav · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:58 am Post subject:

My Galaxy S3 screen is bigger than my TomTom Go 1000 Live. The free apps I’ve tried, including Google, of course do not compare at all with the pnd experience. But cheaper-than-TomTom Sygic gets near to it.

I like that the countryside is in 3d so you can see hills to the left or right or ahead. Not very important I guess and maybe other apps now do the same, but sort of adds to the pleasure. Although Sygic uses TomTom maps, not sure they get the same iq and traffic data.

Phone calls seem to be dying out – everyone Twitters nowadays – and I’ve not had any conflicts between navigation and phone use.
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Tim
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Samsung Galaxy S4, Galaxy Tablet S, TomTom. Osmand+ and Sygic. Ex-TomTom Go 1000 Live, ex-TomTom Go 700, ex-TomTom truck, ex Navman/Ipaq

MikeB · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:08 am Post subject:

I am very concerned about the 'Free' navigation apps from Apple and Google. Everyone knows that nothing comes for Free and we end up paying for it one way or another in the end.

The worry is that while many may be tempted by the short term and probably short sighted view that they are getting a good navigation app for nothing something has to give. Initially it will be the to the detriment of the companies that charge for their apps.

The reality of life is that you just cannot produce something for nothing. There will be a team of programmers, the test team, a marketing team, production crews, all of which expect (rightly) to be paid for their efforts. Then there are the resources that are required to build the apps, computers, offices, support staff etc. Then there are the components that make up the app: maps, POIs, traffic etc. All of these cost money to provide the 'Free' service and need to be funded somehow.

The FREE apps need to be paid for somehow and this is achieved through subsidising from other profit centres of the main company. This is fine for companies like Apple and Google who both have thriving businesses with plenty of surplus capital, but what about the likes of TomTom, Garmin, ALK et al all of whom specialise in navigation, ALK in particular only specialise in Navigation apps. These companies will be forced out of the Market if the 'FREE' apps prevail.

In this scenario TomTom could be unable to maintain the maps, Garmin, ALK etc could stop producing applications and we could be left with Apple and Google dominating the market, with no serious competition, and them deciding what we the customer really want and need.

If any of you doubt this then the question I ask is when was the last time you went to your local butchers, or corner shop? My guess would be back in the 1970s before the supermarkets did to local communities what the big corporations are doing now to our own navigation industry.
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Mike Barrett

ayh20 · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 23, 2005 Posts: 20

Just been through this analysis myself and ended up going with Sygic on an Galaxy S3.

The latest Sygic UI is nice and gives me everything i want except the option to get "alternative" routings. Maps up till now have been accurate and upto date.

My only issue is with the Traffic data they supply which is i believe Inrix based and not always accurate. But they are supposed to be switching to TomTom HD traffic data very soon.

My S3 has a good display that i can see clearly and it's mounted on a Brodit holder at dash height next to the door pillar. The S3 and car's phone integration work well. Only complaint is i can't stream audio over Bluetooth but that's the car's fault.

Previously i ran a early TT Go and TT Navigation app on a Windows Mobile device. ...... so far i don't miss either ...

Andy

Guivre46 · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:43 am Post subject:

Isn't free apps the 'Murdoch model? You corner the market [including advertising - there's a thought*] by subsidising from other income, put your rivals out of business, then gradually introduce charges...

* You're driving along, when suddenly on your navigation device is an ad for a shopping centre in the next 10 miles.
_________________
Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
Go 530T - unsupported
Go550 Live [not renewed]
Kia In-dash Tomtom

IanS100 · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:38 pm Post subject:

I'm a long time owner / user of various TomTom PNDs but I haven't used my 550 since buying a car with built in Sat Nav, not because the in-car routing is better than the TT, because it isn't, but because I couldn't find anywhere convenient to mount it that I liked aesthetically!!

I tried Sygic on an HTC Desire (original) and although the program seemed ok the HTC couldn’t cope with running Sygic & CameraAlert etc along with everything else I was asking it to do, so apps kept freezing. As a consequence, I gave up using Sygic after a short time - I didn’t use it enough to form an opinion.

I tried Google Nav, firstly on the HTC Desire & more recently on a Samsung Galaxy S3, and although I found it reasonable for a free app it just wasn’t consistently good enough to rely on.

I recently purchased CoPilot Live Premium & although it looks good I’ve found the routing to be worse than Google Nav, in fact I’d venture as far as saying I found it gave me the worst routes of all the apps & devices I’ve tried, and the traffic app was a joke. After suffering CoPilot’s abysmal routing /traffic for a month I gave up with it and asked ALK for a refund, not that they are being very cooperative about furnishing me with one!

Now I’m back to using the BMW built in Sat Nav, but will consider TomTom / Android when released, but whether I buy it or not depends entirely on price & performance, I’ll wait for some reviews before deciding.
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Galaxy Note 4 / TomTom GO : CamerAlert : CoPilot

MaFt · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject:

As MikeB rightly says "free" nav apps should really be "free to the end user" as things need paying somewhere.

Personally I don't think the free apps (in particular Google's and Apple's) are any real threat to the paid-for apps.

In my experience the people who use the free ones tend to use them as more of a one-off. Maybe they're visiting a supermarket in a different town than they normally would and so just need some quick directions. Instead of asking someone where the local Tesco is they would do a google search and navigate from that. These users likely wouldn't use a full satav anyway so in a way companies like TomTom, Garmin, ALK, Sygic etc haven't lost out because the user wouldn't have bought it anyway.

For people who use/need a navigation on a more regular basis I tend to find they will buy an app - yes £50 for a phone app may seem a lot BUT it gives you more features than a standalone PND and for considerably cheaper - so it's an easy choice to make. Couple that in with the fact it can be installed to any device linked to that market account (Apple AppStore or Google Play) and the wife/kids can use it too - all for the same cost.

Feature-wise the free ones are very basic so are only really useful for one-off trips in unfamiliar territory. They quickly become frustrating when you need to do more 'advanced' things like, er, saving a favourite location...

Cost-wise the free ones generally use off-board maps so you need to download the maps as you go along. If you're up in The Lakes then getting your route and seeing the map could be simply impossible. Even if the maps are cached in advance, if you lose your signal then need a detour due to roadworks or traffic etc then you won't get your new route. If you used the free ones as a main navigation app then you could quickly eat up a lot of data - fine if you are unlimited but not so good when your data for a month is a fairly paltry 500mb. You could pay more each month for more data allowance or 'all you can eat' but then your app is o longer free, is it? Because you are paying extra to use it...

To save data you can cache the maps in the latest version of Google Navigator but, as Darren rightly points out, you need to plan this in advance. No good if you don't know where you will be going if you are, say, on holiday for a week.

For one-off uses the free ones are fine in my opinion - they get you where you need to go without any bells or whistles. Likewise, for a one-off 'use' asking for directions in a shop is perfectly fine. But if you go to the shop every day to ask for directions it quickly becomes impractical and annoying.

I also don't think that the free ones will EVER get to the same level of features as the paid-for apps for a very simple business reason: Apple and Google make a shedload of money from commission. They get 30% of every sale - so that's £15 for a £50 navigation app. Yes, their infrastructure needs supporting, the developers tools etc need updating etc etc etc but still, they are making money (they wouldn't do it otherwise!) out of not offering a fully-fledged app of their own.

If Google and Apple ended up making fully-fledged navigation apps in direct competition with TomTom, Garmin, Sygic etc they would be shooting themselves in the foot. With a large shotgun. And possibly a grenade too.

If Apple 'wipe out' TomTom who will provide them with their mapping then? This doesn't work for Google though as, in general, they now use their own mapping data.

So, in answer to the discussion question, "no" I do not think that the free apps are killing satnav. Users of the free apps tend to be casual users who likely wouldn't buy a fully-fledged app anyway.

MaFt

PS - I've purposefully ignore Waze as I'm not entirely sure of their business model :/ It's free, they use their own maps but surely someone needs to make some money from that? Again though, like Apple and Google's apps it is, pretty much, a basic navigation app when compared to the likes of Garmin, TomTom, Sygic, CoPilot etc.

PPS - Sorry it was so long! But hey, look, you got some capital letters!!

navtrav · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject:

I agree with MikeB that free apps are bad news for the ‘proper’ SatNav providers – although he mentions Google and Apple, what about Nokia and the new Windows 8 navigation?

MaFt argues the real users of the free apps are the casual users and are not the TT/Garmin/etc buyers. I disagree. I know of several friends and family members who are not on the road that much but have basic pnd models to get around when needed. But will they buy them in the future? Not if they have a smartphone with its 'free' apps.
_________________
Tim
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Samsung Galaxy S4, Galaxy Tablet S, TomTom. Osmand+ and Sygic. Ex-TomTom Go 1000 Live, ex-TomTom Go 700, ex-TomTom truck, ex Navman/Ipaq

MaFt · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject:

st1100flyer · Occasional Visitor Joined: Oct 10, 2006 Posts: 1

I have a Garmin Zumo 550 which is an excellent satnav for use on my motorbike. I have traveled all over Europe with it without problem.
However I have been a long time Nokia mobile phone user, primarily because of the excellent and totally free Nokia Maps. I currently use a Nokia E7- 00 in both in the car and as a pedestrian satnav when in cities, in preference to the Garmin. It functions just as well as the Garmin and does not require a data link as all maps can be pre-loaded either via wifi or "over the air" via a data link, or by connection to a computer. The Nokia has a 4.25" touch screen, excellent turn by turn voice navigation, free world map updates and a good poi database. It also has an excellent 8 megapixel camera, music player, can make/receive phone calls, texts and email. I think that the future for pnd's is bleak and that if other mobile phone manufacturers offer totally free navigation, as does Nokia, then it will be all over. I believe that Garmin once tried to enter the mobile phone market but failed so the industry must be seriously concerned.

AliOnHols · Pocket GPS Verifier Joined: Oct 15, 2008 Posts: 1936

I don't think that free apps are killing the PND market, I think that the PND manufactures are shooting themselves in the foot and the app developers just happen to be in the right place at the right time. If I had to choose between PND and NavApp it would be PND but there are no current PND's that I would be inclined to buy, so a free app would be my next choice.

On my Android phone I have Waze (free), OsmAnd+ (less than a fiver) and Sygic (free 14 day trial). Most of the places I go to, I know the route and just like to see the traffic updates, Waze is sufficient for this. I like OsmAnd+ because I like the principle behind OSM and I want to support them, it's a good app too.

I recently went to see a stage of La Vuelta which meant driving out of my normal area. I decided to download Sygic for the journey because I had seen several recommendations for it on these pages and I was curious.

At home I set the route from Figueres to Manresa on both the TT GO940 and on Sygic/Android, the resulting routes were different but not drastically. I also had a map because I would go the route that I wanted to anyway. (Belts, Braces & SkyHooks!).

About 20 miles from our destination we decided to intercept the race at Súria before it got to Manresa. As the road from Manresa to Súria would have been closed due to the race we had to take a circuitous route over the mountains.

As expected the Go940 coped admirably. Cancel existing route - Travel to - Via. We had our new route within moments. Perfect.

The Sygic nearly ended up out of the window. A difficult UI to change route, too small a keypad to enter unusual names which kept defaulting to what it thought i meant, no obvious "travel via" and a lost 3gNetwork in the mountains to be able to calculate the route anyway. I'm sure that had I been used to Sygic rather than downloading it the day before the journey, my experience would have been better. Needless to say I have not used it again even though it's probably better than the free apps Waze and OsmAnd+.

Sorry, I digress, What was the question? Are free apps killing PND's? No, they are not good enough yet. I think PND's are killing themselves.
_________________
Garmin Nuvi 2599
Android with CamerAlert, OsmAnd+, Waze & TT Europe.
TomTom GO 730, GO 930, GO 940 & Rider2.
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