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Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: Garmin's solution....
Since my previous post I noticed that Garmin have now re-branded their speed camera warning database for France as 'Dangerous Zones'. So the locations of zones deemed to be dangerous, whether or not they have radar speed cameras, can be held on a sat nav device and generate an alert to the driver, as an aid to safer driving.
I suppose we can assume that Garmin has investigated the legality of this in France and is pretty confident that their approach gets around the issue.
If travelling in France this year, drivers should be aware of the changes, particularly that speed camera warning signs are being removed.
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Garmin's solution....
Road_Runner wrote:
Since my previous post I noticed that Garmin have now re-branded their speed camera warning database for France as 'Dangerous Zones'. So the locations of zones deemed to be dangerous, whether or not they have radar speed cameras, can be held on a sat nav device and generate an alert to the driver, as an aid to safer driving.
I suppose we can assume that Garmin has investigated the legality of this in France and is pretty confident that their approach gets around the issue.
If travelling in France this year, drivers should be aware of the changes, particularly that speed camera warning signs are being removed.
Looks like we need more info on this and the requirement for cars to carry breathalysers. I just checked ViaMichelin for my drive back to Italy via 3V skiing next week and that is showing "Dangerous zones" too instead of camera warnings.
If it turns out that it applies to Satnavs, will CamerAlert change this for France too ? Hope so, it's much safer than fiddling with bits of paper to see where the next DZ is...
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject:
We are actively investigating this. But whilst we can change the database for SatNav users with relative ease. We would need to consider updates to the app for CamerAlert. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject:
But how does changing the name of a database or list from 'Cameras' to 'Danger Zones' alter the fact that they are alerting to cameras so may or may not still be illegal????
We are actively investigating this. But whilst we can change the database for SatNav users with relative ease. We would need to consider updates to the app for CamerAlert.
I look forward to seeing what you decide.
I am particularly concerned as I live in Italy just over the border from Nice and pop over regularly to Airport, visit friends etc...
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15137 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject:
My current preference is as follows. Note that this is MY PERSONAL OPINION and must not be copied and pasted as being an official quote for what PGPSW plans to do!!
It 'should be possible'™ to code the download page to give users the option of including the 'dodgy' countries (currently only Switzerland is excluded but user has no say over this) as they can with pMobiles.
So then the onus is on the user. For the smartphone apps the user can simply close CamerAlert in an unsafe country but for the PND installations they will have the option at download whether they get included or not.
I think the option should be "if you want it you can include them but at your own risk". And if a user wants to rename them then that's up to them.
My current preference is as follows. Note that this is MY PERSONAL OPINION and must not be copied and pasted as being an official quote for what PGPSW plans to do!!
It 'should be possible'™ to code the download page to give users the option of including the 'dodgy' countries (currently only Switzerland is excluded but user has no say over this) as they can with pMobiles.
So then the onus is on the user. For the smartphone apps the user can simply close CamerAlert in an unsafe country but for the PND installations they will have the option at download whether they get included or not.
I think the option should be "if you want it you can include them but at your own risk". And if a user wants to rename them then that's up to them.
MaFt
I'd obviously prefer to be warned of the DZ's if that is legal and can be done, but if not, the above would be better than nothing, as long as I can still see the speed displayed with the option for showing the average speed too as I use that a lot even outside average speed zones.
The problem with just saying "it's a smartphone so app can be closed" is that the police can still fine you if the smartphone is turned off and in the boot, let alone sitting in a cradle on the dash !
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject:
RogerTil wrote:
The problem with just saying "it's a smartphone so app can be closed" is that the police can still fine you if the smartphone is turned off and in the boot,
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject:
Yes, something more than just "switching it off" is probably needed for smartphone users.
Incidentally, TomTom are taking very similar steps to Garmin.
Quote:
We are working on a new service for France that warns you about danger zones instead of speed cameras. To keep up-to-date with the latest news about this new service go to FAQ Is the TomTom Speed Camera service legal?, subscribe to this page by clicking the Notify me link at the end of the page. We'll send you a mail when more information is available.
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15137 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject:
RogerTil wrote:
The problem with just saying "it's a smartphone so app can be closed" is that the police can still fine you if the smartphone is turned off and in the boot, let alone sitting in a cradle on the dash !
So I presume you could be fined then if someone wrote some directions for you to follow and they said 'be careful on this stretch as there is a speed camera'?
The problem with just saying "it's a smartphone so app can be closed" is that the police can still fine you if the smartphone is turned off and in the boot, let alone sitting in a cradle on the dash !
So I presume you could be fined then if someone wrote some directions for you to follow and they said 'be careful on this stretch as there is a speed camera'?
MaFt
Don't ask me, I'm just reporting what I was told back in the day when I had a radar detector some years ago ! ;)
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject:
MaFt wrote:
So I presume you could be fined then if someone wrote some directions for you to follow and they said 'be careful on this stretch as there is a speed camera'?
Probably not.
Road_Runner wrote:
The one of particular interest to us is that the 'possession, transport, and use of radar warning devices is prohibited' - it's a 1500 Euro fine,{snip}
So I dont think a piece of paper could be interpreted as a 'device'. But I think we (that's the inclusive 'we') digress from the main cut and thrust of this topic
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15137 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject:
The best info I've found so far translates to:
Quote:
Possessing a radar warning
The possession, transport and use of warning radars - which correlate data on the position of the radar with the actual position of the vehicle calculated by the GPS - is prohibited. Usage is subject to a fine of 1,500 euros, down 6 points of the permit, but also the input of the device or vehicle if the device is attached to it.
That have a support system for driving
For cons, the warning of dangerous areas, that is to say, accident-prone areas which are not systematically implemented radar, become support systems for driving from 1st January 2012.
Through a protocol signed with the Ministry of the Interior, July 28, 2011, manufacturers have pledged not to report the location of fixed and mobile radars, or other control device road. The number of identified hazard areas will be far higher than the number of radars to encourage motorists to moderate their average speed.
I still think the best option is to, by default, not include the swiss/french data but have it as an option (like pMobiles) where the onus is entirely on the user.
We can probably do similar in CamerAlert smartphone app but it depends how strict they are. The law seems not to specify that it is for french cameras only... If you follow it to the word then ANY system that alerts you to the presence of speed cameras based on GPS position is illegal. So even if CamerAlert had no french data in it, technically it would be illegal anyway...
If they're not that strict then, technically, if the app is not running then the result is the same...
It's something that we're discussing within the team anyway to try get the best outcome for our users!
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15137 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject:
OK, phase 1 is complete.
When selecting a European database you can now choose whether or not it includes the French and/or Swiss data. The default for all users is 'no' for both. So if you want the French or Swiss data you will need to manually select it in the first instance before you can get it with the 'Download same again' button.
We are also looking at the best way to 'rename' the files from being 'Speed Camera Warnings' to being 'Dangerous Area Warnings'.
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