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Mapshares are disappearing!!
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uffe73
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis, the issues you are referring to are caused by the verification process (or rather non-existing process) within TomTom, which has been discussed in several threads in the forum. If we new that the TT verified map corrections had been properly verified we wouldn't have this discussion.
So I partly agree with your sceptisism, but for slightly different reasons. If TT just learns from their beginners mistakes and adjusts their verification process, MapShare has big potential. Then, of course you can never switch off your common sense and trust blindly on an electronic device.
Anyway, this doesn't affect me at the moment as all my map corrections were wiped out during the Home update and since then I haven't been able to download any MapShare updates.
Cheers, Ulf
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uffe73
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhn wrote:
In all cases, even a looser level of security, the new size of changes shows as 0 mb.

This is exactly the problem I'm having, and I strongly suspect that it's related to the fact that no countries appear in the list under MapShare preferences. Those of you who are able to download map corrections, can you please tell me if this list contains anything? Mine is blank.
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carl_the_cobbler
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The A40 and the 20mph dual carriageway problems are beyond your ability to handle...

...Sorry, must try harder - I'm still not convinced.


If you drove every day for your profession, then you would realise somethng was not quite right, if you don't then what does it matter for one trip. I quite enjoy driving so aren't really bothered, as before, how I get there as long as I do in the time frame I have set.

Could you not just call those issues glitches that have affected a system that is quite a good idea if the changes reported were verified in good time.

The issue about people adding ones so people avoid their area is great Very Happy, I can see them all clubbing together and saying "If we send in that the main road through our village is closed, then hopefully TT won't verify and people will stay away" GENIUS!!! Very Happy Very Happy
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mikealder
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

carl_the_cobbler wrote:
The issue about people adding ones so people avoid their area is great Very Happy, I can see them all clubbing together and saying "If we send in that the main road through our village is closed, then hopefully TT won't verify and people will stay away" GENIUS!!!

What I don't understand is when someone has tried to add a mini roundabout that the road gets blocked (probably due to an error) but how does this make it through and get shared with everyone?
53,78972 / -3,02235
It is these sort of errors that really prevent me from using the system fully, I think its a great idea suffering from poor implementation - Mike
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Anita
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

uffe73 wrote:
Those of you who are able to download map corrections, can you please tell me if this list contains anything? Mine is blank.

Yes, mine does. I have two versions of the UK&RoI maps in internal memory, and it lists UK, RoI, and GG (Guernsey? Channel Islands?) for both. However, I've never been able to get corrections for the W&CE maps on SD card. I don't get a country list and only get offered voices to download.

With the UK map, if I increase the level of security via Home the number of corrections in use goes down, but I don't know whether it actually removes them or just doesn't apply them.
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uffe73
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for that Anita! I have one v810 map for the Scandinavian countries stored on an SD card. A few days ago I was able to get MapShare updates to that map from Home 2.3, but after updating to v2.4 I can't get any updates (not even with Home 2.3 if I roll back). I also have the v715 WE map in main memory and donīt get any map corrections there either. For none of these maps I am able to view and select the countries I want MapShare corrections for. Any ideas about what causes this are most welcome!
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

uffe73 wrote:
Dennis, the issues you are referring to are caused by the verification process (or rather non-existing process) within TomTom, which has been discussed in several threads in the forum.

Ulf, that is exactly the point and the reason why mapshare downloads are completely off my device. TomTom are not verifying these corrections and they are not applying them correctly. The examples I quoted demonstrate that. I just feel so sad for all the people who are anxious to get the map corrections, but they don't realise they are not getting verified changes. One of my colleagues here has said that mapshare correction downloads degrade the maps and he's so right. That's why I asked Carl why he's downloading the corrections - sadly, the answers are "Because they are there" and "Because I trust them". The further reason "Because I check they are correct before using them" is invalid for anywhere other than the roads he knows intimately.

I am happy to upload my own corrections, but you should not trust them because you don't know if they are accurate. By downloading any corrections, you are leaving your map vulnerable to changes which have not been checked.

I made the point previously that we can't check our route - we simply do not know whether the route we are given is any good when there is a possibility that someone has inserted a bad change. This week, I have done four long journeys, North, South and two East. On most of them, part of the route is not new to me, but other parts were new territory to me. So I had no idea whether the TomTom device was giving me a good route through that part of the country - I trusted it was doing so and in the present circumstances, part of my trust was due to me not accepting any mapshare corrections. My job means I regularly go places I do not know - that's why I have a TomTom Satnav. That's why I need the map to be accurate.

The very first time I used a satnav, it guided me absolutely unerringly to an address in the city of Cardiff, about 50 miles away. The last two miles were completely new to me and I followed the satnav guidance with some concern that it was taking me around streets which looked to be an improbable route. But when the nice voice said I had reached my destination, there it was. I had a street map for that area and I looked at it to see how I would have reached it using just the paper map and I couldn't see how I would have done it. I was instantly converted to TomTom satnav.

There is surely one thing above all else which MUST be the priority with satnav devices - the map must be top quality. MP3 players, audio books, photos, FM transmitter, Traffic warnings, hands free phone are all very good ideas and useful functions, but none of them are any value if you use them merely to pass the time of day whilst you are lost in the middle of nowhere, or diverting miles off track.

It is very sad to see that there are errors in the new map which I (paid for and) downloaded only 15 hours ago, which can only have been input from previous mapshare corrections which have been accepted by TomTom and included permanently in the new map - I haven't had any map correction downloads and the device hasn't even been out of my house yet. If you have the Western and Central Europe map v810, try a demo route from N51.38747, W2.43270 to N51.38996, W2.40931. Notice the 20mph applied to the dual carriageway instead of 70mph. Notice also that in the demo, the movement changes down to 19mph for that stretch, so it is obviously taken into consideration when calculating Fastest Route. You are in Sweden, so I don't suppose you know a lot about the A4 at Bath, therefore, if you use your satnav to navigate around here, you will not know whether the route you are given is the correct one - that applies to everybody who doesn't know this area. A 20mph speed limit where 70mph is correct is not an error which could have been done by a surveying vehicle, nor is it an error which could have been done by a Verifier. Remember, I'm a Verifier of cameras for PGPSW, so I understand that verifying is different from simple reporting - it's OK to make a mistake with a new report, because it should be verified before acceptance. But verification is the acceptance process, so we do it far more carefully. We still may make mistakes, but not many and certainly not something as obvious as closing a major arterial route like the A40, or getting the speed limit wrong by 50mph. I found the 20mph "error" when using the new map on one of my other devices, downloaded a few days earlier and I promptly did a mapshare correction to 70mph and that has been uploaded.

Who do you trust? Official TomTom map that cost you 130 Euros, or me? - you don't know me from Adam, you don't know if I know how to properly work this Map Corrections feature, you don't know my motives for the changes I submit, you don't know if I live on the A4 at that point and would love to get everybody to use a different route and stop polluting my garden!!
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LesP2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From what users have reported it seems possible that when a device is first connected to Home 2.4 it removes the previous corrections, or at least those that would require a less strict level of trust than the new default setting in Home.



Thats not rubbish,i think thats a pretty good explanation for what appears to be happening.
Since the initial hiccup i have had no problems.
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LesP2008 wrote:
Quote:
From what users have reported it seems possible that when a device is first connected to Home 2.4 it removes the previous corrections, or at least those that would require a less strict level of trust than the new default setting in Home.



Thats not rubbish,i think thats a pretty good explanation for what appears to be happening.
Since the initial hiccup i have had no problems.


That is PRECICELY what has happened to me....

At first I thought it was just Mapshare being it's usual crap self (I couldn't get any updates and it was saying "0MB before update"), but I've just checked and sure enough, the correction I made which I always look at to check if they are working (Brewhouse LANE instead of Brewhouse STREET at N51.46479 W0.21275) has vanished.

I can re-load a backup, but I had just done a week's hard work correcting dozens of Pharmacies around West London, which has now been wasted!
Evil or Very Mad
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_P wrote:
I had just done a week's hard work correcting dozens of Pharmacies around West London, which has now been wasted!
Evil or Very Mad
That wouldn't have been the Pharmacies from pgpsw, would it. Maybe another lesson to be learned about TomTom Mapshare corrections?
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uffe73
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
It is very sad to see that there are errors in the new map which I (paid for and) downloaded only 15 hours ago, which can only have been input from previous mapshare corrections which have been accepted by TomTom and included permanently in the new map - I haven't had any map correction downloads and the device hasn't even been out of my house yet. If you have the Western and Central Europe map v810, try a demo route from N51.38747, W2.43270 to N51.38996, W2.40931. Notice the 20mph applied to the dual carriageway instead of 70mph. Notice also that in the demo, the movement changes down to 19mph for that stretch, so it is obviously taken into consideration when calculating Fastest Route. You are in Sweden, so I don't suppose you know a lot about the A4 at Bath, therefore, if you use your satnav to navigate around here, you will not know whether the route you are given is the correct one - that applies to everybody who doesn't know this area. A 20mph speed limit where 70mph is correct is not an error which could have been done by a surveying vehicle, nor is it an error which could have been done by a Verifier. Remember, I'm a Verifier of cameras for PGPSW, so I understand that verifying is different from simple reporting - it's OK to make a mistake with a new report, because it should be verified before acceptance. But verification is the acceptance process, so we do it far more carefully. We still may make mistakes, but not many and certainly not something as obvious as closing a major arterial route like the A40, or getting the speed limit wrong by 50mph. I found the 20mph "error" when using the new map on one of my other devices, downloaded a few days earlier and I promptly did a mapshare correction to 70mph and that has been uploaded.


You're highlighting a big flaw in TomTom's verification process that I haven't come across myself. I don't have the WCE map myself so I can't try out your example. It would be great if someone from the PGPSW team, who meet the TomTom staff on a regular basis, could ask them for som answers regarding this. It shouldn't require much power of deduction to realize that this degrades the quality of the maps. I would be most interested to know if the purchase of Tele Atlas has (or will) change the verification process. I was hoping that the accuracy would improve but your example doesn't indicate that. Not yet at least.

Apart from the issue you're highlighting I'm not so concerned about people submitting faulty map corrections since I always have the option of selecting which ones I want to use (sofar I have only used my own correcions and sometimes the ones that are verified by TomTom). But it's a different story if unverified changes make it into new map releases as permanent data. That is inexcusable!
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richard345
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomTom have released version 2.4.0.104 of HOME today. I've downloaded and installed it on my GO 520 (after a Windows backup, of course).

There were still no MapShare corrections available at the end of the installation procedure.

I then disconnected the device and powered it off an on again and, what a surprise, there are still no updates.

I reported the initial problem of no updates to TomTom Support last night ans will add this experience to any further discussions with them.
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uffe73
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:

If you have the Western and Central Europe map v810, try a demo route from N51.38747, W2.43270 to N51.38996, W2.40931. Notice the 20mph applied to the dual carriageway instead of 70mph. Notice also that in the demo, the movement changes down to 19mph for that stretch, so it is obviously taken into consideration when calculating Fastest Route.


Dennis,
I came to think of something: Are you sure that the example above is an evidence that the faulty speed limit information is taken into account when calculating Fastest Route? Have you tried making a temporary change of the speed limit on a road on your own map to see if the routing is actually changed? I would have thought that the speed limit information was only used for display purpose (to display the speed limit next to your currentl speed) while the fastest route calculation was based on the road classification and (when available) IQ Routes data. That would make more sense. When I have time I will try this out myself.

Regards,

Ulf
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richard345
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, TomTom Support came back and suggested the usual about removing the MapShare Status indicator and reinstalling it, clearing all MapShare updates from my 520, doing a Factory rest etc. etc. Still no change. I've sent them the logs on what did and asked for a speedy response. Also told them I had updated HOME to version 2.4.0.104 and done the same removal reinstalls once again, to no effect.

Waiting - but not holding my breath.
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uffe73 wrote:
Dennis,
I came to think of something: Are you sure that the example above is an evidence that the faulty speed limit information is taken into account when calculating Fastest Route?

Regards,

Ulf
No, Ulf, I'm not sure at all - I confess I just assumed that if the demo runs at a speed indicated below the limit, route calculation would do the same. I shouldn't have jumped to that conclusion and your idea of changing a speed limit to run a test is a good one. BUT.... the problem with that is if I change a speed limit for testing purposes, the device is likely to put them in wrongly when I reset them back to what I had before. Or perhaps I should do a full backup, then the test, then restore the backup. Goodness me, that's a lot of work to prove TomTom have got something wrong (and if I told them, I don't suppose they'd pay attention!!). Not for tonight, I'm afraid - I've just spent a couple of hours cleaning up my GO730 to take back for a refund (same old faulty handsfree problem) and setting up my other devices to cover its absence. Evil or Very Mad
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