Best Speed Camera warning add on

[Oldie]

No, no competition. But I have tried POIhandler using a BP-garages overlay, that originally came from the TomTom website, which I have updated myself. Today I obtained UK°BP°Petrol°Stations, which again seems to be based on the TomTom website overlay, by a new sync. Using a match radius of 50 metres would result addition of the following



-0.85890, 51.12340, "Sleaford S/Stn"

-0.85120, 51.17750, "Bucks Horn Oak Service Station"

-0.51290, 51.10680, "Alfold Filling Station"

   0.67290, 51.81960, "Rivenhall South Filling Station"

   1.24800, 52.06200, "Martlesham Heath Services"



all of which I had corrected and are already present. The Sleaford coordinates are a long way from the true position.



All I am saying is be careful, else you could end up with a lot of undetected duplicates. Also, how do you cope with POIs that you have deleted and POIs that have moved a long way?



Richard

[Mark R Penn]

Well, for speed cameras (and lets face it, who needs to be warned they are aproaching a BP garage?!!) I can live witha few duplicates - better that than ommisions.



I'm not sure if the sync deals with deletions or not, but if not, what's the worst that can happen - you get warned to slow down where there used to be a camera - big deal!



I don't think it will end up with loads of duplicates anyway. If two users are syncing, the first to find a camera will add it, sync, and then the second user will drive past the location, and be warned. Therefore the second user will not add the camera, and no duplication will occur. Obviously if both users happen to drive past an unlisted camera on the same day, before syncing, two versions could be uploaded that night, but a) how likely is that, and b) maybe the duplication will be picked up anyway?



I'll get an e-mail off to POI Warner, asking these questions, so that we can all understand it. If it can be made to work properly, and people are confident of that, then it has to be a great system.
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Dave]

Mark, (this is not having a go at you), but over the past months we have spend huge amounts of time putting together our database for Pocket GPS users, and I can say that the whole team's opinion is one that we are very dissapointed in seeing that another website now completely has our full database of data and they are now using it as their own. From my personal perspective, yes POI syncing could be a good idea, but all of our data is now being used in a very questionable way, and this leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, and with other members of the Team here.



We don't mind giving our data free to you the users, but POI-Handler are now using our data as their own, and we will be even more annoyed if we find companies are doing this and making profit out of us!



We were working on an enhanced database, now I really don't know where we'll be going with this seeing what has happened. We need to re-evaluate this and discuss this further amongst the team.



As Richard (Oldie) has said, we have taken extreme care over removing duplicates and getting entries as close as can be and it looks like with the new POI-Handler and POI-Warner synch, this could provide very inaccurate data and if members are using this service and at the same time are mailing us changes, then this could downgrade the accuracy of our database.



All I can stress at this time is that we are very disappointed to see that other websites are now using our data as their own. I know co-ordinates are of a location and can easily be recorded and made available, but what has effectively happened would be like us hacking TrafCam's database and pulling all of their data out and using it as our own (which we have not and will not do).



We need to decide what we're going to do going forward.

[TheBoyGroucho]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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Is there some sort of competition going on here that I'm not aware of? There seams to be a lot of negative reaction to the POI sync, all based around "Pocket GPS do it better", when what we actually have is a free service (for registered owners of POI Warner) attempting to make it easy to maintain and share up to date POI files with minimal effort from users. Surely that can only be a good thing, even if it's not absolutely perfect from day one.

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I think its perfectly reasonable for folk to raise legitimate concerns about the subject. Lets not forget that POIwarner provide their software for a price (not that there is anything wrong with that at all) but their commercial strategy will surely be to increase their customer base by whatever means, and if they "takeover" the gatso camera POI database then their

position in the market place will be stronger.

True the current format of the POI files allows easy distribution but then again warez TTnav2 euro maps are readily available on the Internet to download (at no cost and easily installed)....so if in the future POIwarner wanted to charge a subscription for database updates would you be comfortable to distribute warez copies of "their" data?



The difference to me is that the PocketGPS folk did a vast amount of work to produce the POI for the benefit of the website and I'm not sure how comfortable I am about it being passed on to a commercial concern. Naturally as its the Pocketgps folk who are doing the work then the decision to keep on with the project or not rests entirely with them, but personally I hope they keep with.

[Mark R Penn]

Dave, I'm sorry if that's what has happened, but I can assure you that the POI Handler database already contained all of "your" data before I did my first sync - there were only 18 new locations added by my sync, even after copying your database into "mine", and those were almost certainly the ones I have added myself.



I'm afraid I don't follow the argument that this is anything like hacking into Trafcams data. Their data is comercial, yours is not (yet), and yours is public domain, if only because of the format in which you publish it. I can see and greatly apreciate the work that you have put into the database, but what many POI users have been crying out for is an easy and "no brain" way to share the data, and that (maybe with some limitations) is what POI Warner/POI Handler have come up with. It seams a bit rediculous to me to maintain two separate non commercial databases on two separate sites, and to get a little precious (not intended to be insulting - it was the only way I could think to express it) about who holds what data.



I would almost say "Thanks Pocket GPS for getting the core database together, now over to POI Handler and their new technology to maintain it".



I do accept that maybe you should have been consulted and asked if you had any objection to your data ending up in their database, but actually I don't see how they could have prevented it given the file formats involved.



Maybe I'm being idealistic and not commercial enough, but isn't the idea that we all share this "non-commercial" data for the benefit of us all?



And yes, POI Warner is a commercial product, but then so is the desktop I need to be able to access the info on your site in the first place. At the moment, and I accept it could change, POI Warner is simply a tool to help access the data in a more efficient way.



And finally, I think I remember that in the early days you actively encouraged POI Handler to establish itself, and I think even told them to use your data (before it was as extensive as it is now)!



Mark
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[TheBoyGroucho]

Perhaps Pocketgps should supply their gatso camera database POI download as "Freeware" stipulating free usage but no redistribution...ok so it won't stop folk from passing off the data as their own but at least any website that did so in the future could be fairly accused of copyright violation.

Anyway you guys have done an excellent job with the gatso camera database as well as the rest of the sites content (I have directed numerous folk here for further info and at least 3 have bought PDA gps systems based on what they have read here)

[Mark R Penn]

Quote: so if in the future POIwarner wanted to charge a subscription for database updates would you be comfortable to distribute warez copies of "their" data?

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ABSOLUTELY NOT. My point was not that we should try to find ways arround it if they do go commercial, it was that them going commercial is less likely than you suggested, because it would involve a complete change in the technology in order to make it viable.



One last point on this subject - for the moment at least, the databases that are updated through the syncs are also available for download outside of POI Warner. If they were as commercially agressive as is being suggested, surely they would have insisted that the synced database could only be accessed via their product? That most deffinately would have given them an edge, as the "POI Warner" DB grew ahead of the "Manual" one. Instead they have made it possible for their competitors to take advantage of the extended DB evolved, at least in part, by use of their product! To my mind, just more evidence that they concider their product a tool to allow easy and quick access to public domain data, rather than a basis for a subscription based service. More power to their elbow I say.



OK, that was not the last point! Does anybody really believe that Trafcams database was constructed purely through their own research? I'll bet any money you like that they've compared it with just about every public domain piece of info out there, including the Pocket GPS stuff. Perhaps they are the ones who should be taken to task, if we believe that public domain data should not be "hijacked" for commercial purposes, ever?


_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Mark R Penn]

Quote: Originally posted by TheBoyGroucho on 03 May 2003

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Perhaps Pocketgps should supply their gatso camera database POI download as "Freeware" stipulating free usage but no redistribution...ok so it won't stop folk from passing off the data as their own but at least any website that did so in the future could be fairly accused of copyright violation.

Anyway you guys have done an excellent job with the gatso camera database as well as the rest of the sites content (I have directed numerous folk here for further info and at least 3 have bought PDA gps systems based on what they have read here)

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Most deffinately they have done a good job. I too refer people here all the time, but more as a source of advice than as a POI database.



Perhaps what Pocket GPS SHOULD do is aproach POI Warner with a view to becoming a third sync choice for users of POI Warner, rather than trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. That way they could attract traffic (no pun intended!), could put in place whatever safeguards the technology allows, and could take advantage of any commercialisation that follows. I'd be all for that, and would deffinately choose Pocket GPS ahead of any other site.


_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[TheBoyGroucho]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

---

One last point on this subject - for the moment at least, the

databases that are updated through the syncs are also available for

download outside of POI Warner. If they were as commercially

agressive as is being suggested, surely they would have insisted that

the synced database could only be accessed via their product? That

most deffinately would have given them an edge, as the "POI

Warner" DB grew ahead of the "Manual" one. Instead they have

made it possible for their competitors to take advantage of the

extended DB evolved, at least in part, by use of their product! To my

mind, just more evidence that they concider their product a tool to

allow easy and quick access to public domain data, rather than a

basis for a subscription based service. More power to their elbow I

say.

---

And say Pockgetgps decide to drop support/update of *their*

database.....without competition POI Warner would then be free to

restrict download of the database to paid and registered users any

time in the future they choose.

Even though the data would be in an easily copyable format you have

already said you wouldn't distribute warez copies of it.

[TheBoyGroucho]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 02 May 2003

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I recon that with it's new server synch feature, POI Warner has to be miles ahead. Basically, if I drive past a camera that is not on the map, and add it, as soon as I sync that when I get back to my desk, it is available for you to download directly into TTN. I've added 18 cameras to the database just this evening, without having to even know which ones they are!

---

I suspect that once they have a relatively complete database they might decide to exploit its comercial value and start charging a subscription for its use.

I'd rather stick with the pocketgps database.

[Mark R Penn]

They already are free to do that if they want to! How does the existance of data on Pocket GPS, that is for now harder to access, prevent them from charging for access to the POI Handler data?



The point here is that the technology has moved on, and it's Pocket GPS that must adapt, not others, if they don't want to be left behind.



If they do decide to stop, that would be bad. That's why I would far rather they partnered with POI Warner (or someone else if they prefer), in order to take advantage of the technology, rather than sticking their heads in the sand and either giving up, or saying "but it's not fair" all the way to oblivion.



Fact is their is no competition between the two (Pocket GPS and POI Handler) is there? They are both public domain sources of OV2 files. While I tend to think it's unlikely, who's to prove that most of the data on Pocket GPS did not originate from POI Handler, rather than the other way around?



Actually I don't mind if it did, what I want is as much public domain data as possible, along with the simplest possible tools to access it. The only thing that is not to my liking in this whole sittuation (appart from the fact that it has apparently upset some people, even if I don't agree with their reasons for being upset) is that POI Warner does not (yet) support direct access to the Pocket GPS data, but it's for Pocket GPS to keep up with the technology, not for the technology to limit itself to protect Pocket GPS!
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Dave]

We are just going to have to take a step back and take a serious look at what we do both with the safety camera database and with this superb resource that you all love and adore and visit on a daily basis. This doesn't mean that either or both will disappear, we just need to re-evaluate what we're going to do, how much effort we put into all of this in the future.



I would just like to re-iterate our disclaimer which has been in force since day 1 of the website going live "All work published within this website including all artwork, logos, photos, articles and reviews are copyright 2001-2003 Pocket GPS, All Rights Reserved.   None of which may not be copied, or reproduced in part or in full"

[Mark R Penn]

Dave, this is getting far more serious than I ever intended.



OK, yes your T's and C's do say that, and so they should as well, but in a practical sense did you not intend the database to be there to make life easier for people?



If I'm going to be honest with everyone about how I see this, I have to say fair do's to POI Handler and POI Warner for coming up with a great way to share data, and that it's a shame you didn't think of it first. That's not a throw away comment - I really do think it's a shame it's not you instead of POI Handler, because it's you I'd support every time given the choice.



There are actually two different issues here:



1) How did your data end up on POI Handler, if it did? A lawyer would of course argue that your data could have come from them just as easily as theirs came from you, possibly without either party knowing about it. A user submits a piece of data to your site - how do you check where it came from?



2) Who has provided the easiest method of sharing the data? For now, POI Handler most definately have. If you concider yourself in competition with POI Handler, you need to meet that compitition head on, either by offering other advantages (acuracy could be one if you can verify that), or by offering an equally inovative access method. Either way, if you really do believe that your data is not public domain, there for the good of all, you must find a way to protect it.



Finally, I don't see your 12 hours a day as wasted, or that anyone has slapped you in the face. You have a supurb site here, that provides infinately more than just a POI database (that's all POI Handler does). I would actually say that you should be proud to have contributed to the availability of acurate and extensive POI data, and feeling rather smug that it has (alegedly) been taken up by other non commercial sites.



Yes, of course POI Handler should at the very least acknowledge you as the source of some of their data if they've pulled it, but I doubt they know where most of it originated from, any more than you know where I got any data I might have submitted to you.



I really do hope you don't decide to give up, or to scale down what you do, especially in response to what can only be a good thing for the users you have supported so admirably.



Please, please, please, rather than giving up, get in touch with POI Warner, or GPS Assist, or whoever you choose, and do what POI Handler have done. And then protect your data as best you can. And charge if you want to. I can gurantee you that as long as I percieve value for money (I don't with Trafcam for example), I will use whatever service you come up with, in preference to any other.
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Mark R Penn]

BTW, how do I find this wonderful resourse that Pocket GPS provides - I'm probably being thick, but I had to link from the TomTom site to even find it in the first place? I still can't find any way to get to it from your menu - all I find is the Surrey database in the downloads section.
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Dave]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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Finally, I don't see your 12 hours a day as wasted, or that anyone has slapped you in the face. You have a supurb site here, that provides infinately more than just a POI database (that's all POI Handler does).

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Thanks, sure we know our work is good, when we look at our website stats they are in some cases 20 times more than other GPS websites receive, and we get lots of great compliments from users, but when you slog hard over creating something like this, doing something for everyone out there and it really does get chucked back in your face by having fall into other commercial hands it is a slap in the face. It really makes us wonder whether we should encrypted the database to stop this happening in the future! We've also had a lot of articles/images/reviews and logos stolen over time, some quite recently and we have followed requested these stolen contents be removed or legal action will commence. Whether we do this with POI-Handler, we need to decide before we rush into anything. Like I said, we need to re-evaluate what we do, and from my point of view it also means whether we create new services like this in the future for people.

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

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BTW, how do I find this wonderful resourse that Pocket GPS provides - I'm probably being thick, but I had to link from the TomTom site to even find it in the first place?

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90% of our stats come from search engines, that's where people find us.



For me, this has come as a sad day!

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