Best Speed Camera warning add on

[Mark R Penn]

Quote:

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I can understand from a user point of view, like users like to pirate MP3's and software. If only you knew the amount of effort we've been putting into talking to lots of GPS companies starting to work our database into their products. Something that would potentially keep the database free of charge, but also to give us money to keep not only the Safety Camera Database going, but to enhance it to give you a much richer database and to fund the rest of this website. Now potentially that's all gone to pot! And no, I'm not going to go into these details here as they are confidential.

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Oh for goodness sake Dave, it's nothing like pirating MP3's. POI Handler nicking your data might be, if they have done that, but a user taking several freely available OV2's, and using a POI manager to combine them all into one OV2 is not the same at all. You even offer the software to do it for Gods sake.



Now, getting to the real issue, this is the most revealing statement you've made so far. It turns out that you have put much work into getting some sort of income (for the site - not yourself) from your database, and now feel that that has become impossible because someone has nicked it. Now, that I can understand. It's far more honest of you to say "we had some plans to make money out of our work, and it's been destroyed", than it is to say what you had been saying, i.e. "we've put a lot of time and effort into it for the common good, and feel hurt that someone else has taken our work and used it, for the common good".



Basically, POI Handler beat you to it (probably because their database is international while yours isn't), and that is made unfair because you believe they did so using your work. I'd bring the full force of the law to bear if I were you. Just take some good advise about whether or not you have a case first (e.g. was the data yours to own in the first place, did POI Handler nick it or did some third party upload it without their knowledge, who owns a free OV2 file once it's on a PPC, who owns an OV2 file once it's been created on the PPC by combining several other free OV2's?), so you don't waste a load of money.



cont.

[gregh]

ok it appears checkpoint doesn't do speed related warnings, ie only visual warning if you are going slower than the speed limit past a camera.



Does POIwarner or any other package do this?



regards,



greg

[agibbs]

I was under the impression that Checkpoint DOES have speed related warnings - there are three possible warnings (first, speed, second) and I don't see why you should not be able to only activate the speed type for a quiet life. I personally don't use this feature because I don't have separate lists for different camera speeds (although I'd be keen to do this if such lists are available?)



It does not have a general speed warning (every time you go above a certain speed) - I think you want GPS assist for that.
_________________
Andrew Gibbs

[gregh]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I don't want warnings if I'm over x mph I want audible warnings if I'm in range of a camera and above the speed limit for *that* camera, and silent if I'm below the speed limit for *that* camera.



This is what my Geodesy did.



cheers,



greg

[Neil F]

Chckpoint can do that. You can set .wav's to be triggered for 3 things:-



1 - Approaching a speedcam (30 secs away)

2 - almost at speedcam (10 secs away)

3 - approaching a speedcam while exceeding speedlimit for that cam



If you just set up a wav for option3 above it would work as you want. The only problem is all the cams in the POI database need their speedlimit setting ;)



Neil

[Mark R Penn]

I recon that with it's new server synch feature, POI Warner has to be miles ahead. Basically, if I drive past a camera that is not on the map, and add it, as soon as I sync that when I get back to my desk, it is available for you to download directly into TTN. I've added 18 cameras to the database just this evening, without having to even know which ones they are!
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Mark R Penn]

Hmm,



OK, you (Dave and Darren) have said a couple of things there that have got me thinking, and reading items on your site more carefully.



1) On the Camera database page, you say:



"Q. I have a website and would like to publish your Speed Camera data, or use it within my own application, am I permitted to do so ?



A. No, this data is only allowed to be distributed from the Pocket GPS website. We will discuss use of our data within other products, but our Speed Camera data must only be published from the Pocket GPS website."



Is that new? If not, I'd have expected it to be the first thing you'd have refered to when this discussion started. If it's not new, I'd have thought it would be absolutely clear that POI Handler have breached your terms. However, it seams to me the problem you have is that it might be impossible to prove that A) they got the data from you, rather than the other way round, and B) even if you could prove it was yours (from the "unique identifier" you add?), how would you prove how it came to be on their site - a site that, like yours, accepts submitals from the general public?



If it is new, then all I can really say is good idea, but too late to help you with this sittuation.



2) I still maintain that POI Warner is only a tool here. Maybe you know of some relationship between POI Warner and POI Handler that would mean they had coluded to nick your data, but as far as I can see it would be like trying to blame the maker of my browser if I were to download illegal MP3's. Therefore, TheBoyGroucho's suggestion that you might "remove every mention of POI Warner on the PocketGPs site" is off target - if you have been ripped off, it's POI Handler that's done it, not POI Warner. And as far as I can see, POI Handler is non-commercial, so your data has not "fallen into other commercial hands".



cont.

[Mark R Penn]

3) Bottom line is that there seems to be some sort of problem between POI Handler and you, that perhaps you are not explaining fully. If it is all based around the fact that your data has ended up on their site, I can't see how that could have been avoided, given the technology and users desires to have easy access to this sort of info. The moment POI Warners sync technology was invented, it was inevitable that users would want to consolodate all of the speed camera data they had, and keep it up to date through this new and "no-brainer" method. I admit, with shame, that that's exactly what I wanted to do, and in fact gave instructions for on another thread (I've e-mailed the link to you - please delete my recommendation, as I now see it is inapropriate). However, proof that I was not alone comes from the fact that all your data was already there by the time I tried to do it. I think that your insistance that your data must not be uploaded to their site limits the usefullness of the new technology and dissadvantages no-one but the users, and so it's a shame you can't find a way to work together, but I do accept your right to make whatever rules you want for your data.



In the space of 5 days, you have gone from saying:

Quote:

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POIHandler.com and the Author of POI-Warner have put their hands together in order to offer you a new service to synchronize the Points of Interest (POI) data between your PDA and POIHandler.com. Now you can easily maintain POI's (Overlays) on your PDA and synchronize these with POIHandler.com. Using this new feature makes it easier than ever to maintain Points of Interest data. To use this new feature the minimum requirement you will need is POIWarner 2.x which you can upgrade for free!



Make sure you register yourself today so that you can start using this brand new service right now!!

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To saying:

Quote:

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.............you can be sure that POI-Handler will do none of this, they won't be interested in removing entries from their database and we are as a team very disheartened by the whole episode.

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What has happened in the meantime? What has changed this from a great way to share POI data, to some sort of attack on your work?



I think you have to accept that from a users point of view, there are several sources of speed camera data, few of them protected or commercial, and it makes sense to consolidate them to get the biggest list possible because not one of them is complete. Preventing your data from ending up on their site stops users from having that benefit. Quote from another post on this site "Would it be possible to set something up with POI Handler.com so that our own (read Pocket GPS) database could be automaticaly synced? That would be as they say 'coooooool!".



I'll say it again, please work something out, with someone, so that your superb work can be used via the latest syncing technology. If you do that, all these concerns will go away, won't they?



Mark


_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Mark R Penn]

Dave,

Quote:

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Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 03 May 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally, I think I remember that in the early days you actively encouraged POI Handler to establish itself, and I think even told them to use your data (before it was as extensive as it is now)!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Mark, we have never told anyone to use our data.......

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This is the thread I was refering to. I could be completely mistaken, but wasn't that the start of what became POI Handler? You are right, you did not tell them to use your data, and of course the data that was used was not created by Pocket GPS, but it was taken from your site, and you raised no objection at the time. The whole emphasis was about shareing this kind of information.



I'm not saying this justifies anything now, but maybe it is an indication of just how keen we all were to share, you included, and that's what's got us to where we are today?



BTW, you say in that thread that the OV2's on your site at the time came from TomTom's site, a site that today says "® Copyright © 2003 Palmtop BV. All rights reserved." on every page, including the POI page. Maybe it didn't back then, or maybe you got permission, or just linked, but food for thought, don't you think?



Mark
_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Dave]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 04 May 2003

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Bottom line is that there seems to be some sort of problem between POI Handler and you, that perhaps you are not explaining fully.

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The only problem between POI-Handler and ourselves is that they now have our data using it as their own.

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 04 May 2003

---

In the space of 5 days, you have gone from saying:

POIHandler.com and the Author of POI-Warner have put their hands together in order to offer you a new service to synchronize the Points of Interest (POI) data between your PDA and POIHandler.com.

---

! Mark, we receive dozens of press releases a week, and this was just one of the press releases that we take, and post to our site to help others in the GPS community, but we don't expect to be stabbed in the back. Like I said above, we were NOT against POI-Handler, or having any issue with them until we found our data had been stolen and used by them as their data. If you want, I'lls end you the press release with full email headers ?

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 04 May 2003

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What has happened in the meantime? What has changed this from a great way to share POI data, to some sort of attack on your work?

---

Like I said Mark, nothing has changed. If they wanted to take all of our POI's on our TomTom POI page then fine, we haven't created any of these, the issue here is we work hours a week to collate responses on the Safety Camera Database, and it's just been thrown back in our face.



How do we know that POI-Warner's removed the wrong or right camera from the POI-Handler Service ? We don't! So when you send us your database we notice certain cameras disappear, are they the right or wrong ones ? Who knows ? We do put a huge amount of effort into locating these cameras when we remove or add these, sure you can't get everyone correct, but we give a damn good stab at it. When people email us to add or remove cameras they give the reason for it, which can understand being a valid reason for addition or removal. You can bet POI-Handler won't be tracking this.

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 04 May 2003

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I think you have to accept that from a users point of view, there are several sources of speed camera data, few of them protected or commercial, and it makes sense to consolidate them to get the biggest list possible because not one of them is complete.

---

I can understand from a user point of view, like users like to pirate MP3's and software. If only you knew the amount of effort we've been putting into talking to lots of GPS companies starting to work our database into their products. Something that would potentially keep the database free of charge, but also to give us money to keep not only the Safety Camera Database going, but to enhance it to give you a much richer database and to fund the rest of this website. Now potentially that's all gone to pot! And no, I'm not going to go into these details here as they are confidential.

[Dave]

Quote: Originally posted by Mark R Penn on 04 May 2003

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I'll say it again, please work something out, with someone, so that your superb work can be used via the latest syncing technology. If you do that, all these concerns will go away, won't they?



We have been investigating ways, but why should we now ? Why will this all go away ? Other parties now have our full database to use as their own unless we take action!



I've said all I'm going to say on this subject now. We're now going to take a real hard look at the Camera Database, I've taken a complete dump of the POI-Handler database with all of our entries in, and we need to decide what we're going to do. If it means we go as far as taking legal action, so be it.

[compaq dave]

Plagiarise, Plagiarise, Plagiarise,

     Is all I can say! Back in the old days, I was one of the first to do it, by copying the data from Mr Labs site, converting it to .OV2 format and submitting it to the tomtom web site for every one to use (before POI Handler or Pocketgps had a online database). Important points are though I gave credit to Mr Lab!



Mark, if you drive lots of miles per year & I mean a lot! Duplicate cameras are a pain! The best databases are ones with the human touch to remove duplicate cameras. POI Handler has so many duplicates its unbelievable! (Interesting to note the both Pocketgps and POI Handler have a camera in the North Sea!)



Next time you get some speed camera locations import the in to autoroute, it makes for some interesting plotting!



I can kind of feel for Dave here, When you do speed camera databases, it’s a lot of hard work to try and make it a good as possible, you have spent hours working away you upload the locations for all to use, you have done a service to the community and every one should be happy, right?



Wrong all you get for months afterwards is whingeing emails, from people complaining about the quality of your data or “that’s very good have you got any more locations” or “ is there a more up to date list than yesterdays”



Dave

[compaq dave]

Dave,

   You don't own the speed camera Locations! I think you copied some of my locations in the first place! But were all working for the greater good here aren't we?



So what if POI Handler has ripped off your page, it doesn't detract from you work!



Anyway it will probably do you a favour, as it will cut down on a lot of you nuisance emails!



People who like big numbers of cameras will flock to POI Handler by there thousands, to download 30% duplicates! In my view this will only get worse as more syncing automation takes over.



It’s the No brain attitude that causes the problems!



Dave

[agibbs]

Call me a cheapskate, but CheckPOInt was free...



It also works well enough that if the author wants some money I'd happily send some (as long as it is cheaper that POI-Warner!)
_________________
Andrew Gibbs

[Mark R Penn]

Now we know that this IS a commercial (but not necessarily profit making) competition, we can have an honest debate about what to do about it. Before it was confused by argumants like my own "it doesn't matter - its all for the common good?"



But, I keep saying it, and you don't seam to want to hear - hit the competition head on (at the same time as legal action if you want to). POI Handler (aledgedly) do not have the following advantages, so sell these. If you can't sell these, then there is no market for what you have, and you have to decide whether to keep it free, or drop it:



1) Accuracy - you manually check each entry, POI Handler don't.



2) Integrity - you are one of the most trusted sites on this subject on the web.



3) Specialization - you are a UK site, maintaining a UK database, with all the advantages that local knowledge brings.



4) Web trafic - you attract many more people to your site than others, so there will be a much bigger take up of any service offered here.



I can guarantee you, as a business owner, that the greatest threat to your enterprise is taking too much notice of what the competition is doing, and giving up when they appear to get an advantage, fair or otherwise. You have to be aware of your competition, but also confident in your own ability and unigue selling points.



Go for it - all is not lost.



Mark


_________________
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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