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Joined: 20/08/2002 11:51:57 Posts: 3859 Location: Essex, UK
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:43 am Post subject:
SpeedCam wrote:
Sorry PocketGPS team but I do have to agree with gsxr1000, I have felt for some months now that there is a closer relationship with TomTom and some bias to their products. Yes they maybe the market leader, and maybe the review scoring needs revising as nearly all products reviewed are in the high 90's.
Please don't take this a critisum, but positive feedback, the site has be an invaluable source of information, and I hope it continues to be independent and not influeced by the suppliers.
Thanks for your comments guys.
I have tried to create closer relationships with a lot of GPS companies, including TomTom, NavMan, Co-Pilot, Destinator plus many others. We are trying to forge relationships whereby we are part of the product development cycle for products that these companies produce providing a voice for our users views, comments etc. TomTom and CoPilot are currently the only companies who are actively persuing this with us, the other companies are not at the moment.
I have always been acutely aware that we feature more TomTom items than anyone else, and was extreemly concerned almost to the point of embarasment that the TomTom PR was far and away more effective than any other company immediately before CeBIT. Should we not report TomTom news just because the other companies dont brief us? I would say that we did the right thing and that we should encourage the other companies to follow TomToms lead.
As for the reviews I have always had my reservations about awarding gradings to reviews for precicely the objections that you raise. What do you do when a product that scores highly gets better? I suspect that if all the functionality is laid before you it you can make an informed judgement for yourself, without recourse to stars or percentages.
Another decision we took pretty much early on was not to perform comparative reviews of the software with other products. This was taken to enable us to review products in thier own right rather than making what can often be arbitary comparisons with other packages.
We have been using this (Navigator 5) software for over a month now so we know it pretty well, but the software we have been looking at is beta quality software and may change before it is released to market. During this time it is very probable that things will change, and possibly major functionality could be introduced (though I doubt it).
All of us here at PocketGPSWorld.com give up considerble amounts of our spare time to maintain the site and create these reviews for you. After puting in a full 8 hours plus at our day jobs which pay the bills.
That said we do always appreciate constructive comments and critique about our work here, but please be assured that we are totally independent and unbiased in our efforts to review GPS gear for you. We are not sponsored by any GPS company. _________________ Mike Barrett
Thanks, you'll also notice that no other site has the full reviews of all of the latest TomTom 5 products
SpeedCam wrote:
the only thing that worries me is the routing which is probably the most important feature of SAT nav. Would it be possible to provide some comparisons between TT V3 & V5 especially with V3 road speeds changed from their default.
This is unfortunately down to your own user preference. Many people don't tweak road speeds, and personally I do like the road speeds that are set. I do around 70% A road driving with around 30% motorway driving and I find that the routes provided and ETA's are fairly spot on. This won't be the case for others who have a different percentage rate on the roads they drive, or specific roads where ETA's can be adversely affected like M3 or M25.
SpeedCam wrote:
For those not aware, the road speed settings are no longer available in V5 and potentially will affect the calculated routes. I suspect V5 routes will bias major roads similar to other products such as CoPilot & NavMan
Correct. Major roads being motorways and A roads. This is the way that 90% of all applications are going, so you'll be hard pressed to find an application that will differ from this, or will allow you to tweak then. Having said that, there may be the odd application out there that will let you tweak it, and TomTom 5 Core Navigation Platform is still in beta, so there may be changes made prior to the public release. Currently, there is no way of changing these.
Peter Kessler wrote:
Apologies for the repeat
Has TomTom 5 solved the problem of reverting to 'Quickest' option if you go off-route after having selected 'Shortest'?
Many thanks
Peter, this is something we'll have to test. TBH I haven't looked at this.
gsxr1000 wrote:
its my first post here but i have been observing for maybe 18 months re gps and have owned navman and currently co pilot 4 using them on platfroms such as the ipaq and currently o2 xda2s.
i finally feel i have to post here after i have read this review which amounts to nothing more than a product overview and the usual bladder one gets from the manufacturer web-sites.
there is nothing subjective atall mentioned re how well the maps zooms, does it zoom automatically like navman, or manually...???
That's obviously your opinion. There are a lot of others that see it a different way. Everyone has their own view and perspective and that's obviously yours.
gsxr1000 wrote:
are the maps good and containing a reasonable amount of updates..??
How do you find whether the maps are good ? And how do you define whether there have been a reasonable amount of updates ?. This information isn't available, so all we can do is look at the maps and see if there are any glaring errors. It's not an exhaustive test by any means, but we haven't seen any glaring errors. Updates, yes. M6 Toll Road is in there, A34 bypass re-work is mostly in there. So by this we should be able to work out that there have been updates. Reasonable ?....you can't quantify this, it's an unknown.
gsxr1000 wrote:
one way streets, does it plan routes incorrectly or good.....?
All applications we have tested for the last 18 months, and upwards to 2 years have the ability to route correctly down a one-way street. We haven't seen a problem here so we don't report it. There may be the odd one-way irregular routing in most applications. There's always going to be the odd one out. This is down to the map data provided and probably needs re-mapping, but as I've said, we haven't come across any. If there's any you believe are incorrect, give us the road and city name and we'll plan some routes and check for you.
gsxr1000 wrote:
how does it subjectively compare with CP5 or Navman3, what does it do better or worse.
We don't compare applications. One man's apples are another man's banana's. As Mike has said we review each application on it's own merit, and the TomTom 5 platform we've currently reviewed (although still in beta) looks very nice. If you've used Mobile or GO then you'll be right at home with it, and also have new features like the Plus services.
gsxr1000 wrote:
frankly Dave you reviews were once good and a worthwhile source of good honest info, but i have to call into question giving software 97.5% when i seriously doubt it has been anywhere near a good thorough roadtest.
You can call into question, but you haven't seen or used the application for a month. We have. Personaly I think it merits 97.5%. Like I've said above, everyone's opinion is different. Some users will love it dearly and would rate it 100%. Others because it doesn't have their features they want will rate it at 30%.
gsxr1000 wrote:
i was about to buy CP5 a while ago after reading your review of that but there are so many real world everyday users of this software who also question your unbiast reviews.
You're obviously being highly critical. That's your opinion. My opinion is we are unbiased across the range. If companies give us software (and hardware) to review, then we'll review it. If they don't we can't exactly go over and break their arms like the maffia in getting them to provide their products for review. Each application (and hardware) is tested to a high standard. Everyone has differing opinions on what they feel is the ideal software application so you're bound to get some people like yourself not like our reviewing techniques. If you really don't like them to that degree, you do know you don't have to visit PocketGPSWorld.com don't you ? We're not forcing you to come here and read our reviews!
gsxr1000 wrote:
sorry dave i give you the thumbs down with this review its just almost like a text book dictation.
I think if you were to test the software then you would feel differently. That's where we have the advantage here, and we have been thoroughly testing multiple versions of the software for approx a month now.
SpeedCam wrote:
Sorry PocketGPS team but I do have to agree with gsxr1000, I have felt for some months now that there is a closer relationship with TomTom and some bias to their products. Yes they maybe the market leader, and maybe the review scoring needs revising as nearly all products reviewed are in the high 90's.
As Mike has said, some companies are more willing to work with us. That includes ALK and TomTom from a software perspective. We also have other hardware companies that are more willing to work with us. If other companies don't want to properly market their products and even when asked 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 times like we have to do for a review sample and still fail to produce a review, then why should we review it ? In-fact we still try to obtain a version from a retailer to balance the flow of reviews, but this is then at our OWN COST and is something we shouldn't have to do.
There is no bias towards TomTom or ALK when it comes to reviewing the software. The only bias there possibly could be is in running their applications for more hours compared to some of the other companies that continually fail to provide review samples for the team. .... and unfortunately that cannot be our fault. Some companies want to become market leaders like TomTom and ALK and do what they can to support the team with as many licenses as we require. Others won't even provide a review copy. That's life I suppose.
I read somewhere that there is an option on TomTom Modile 5 to navigate on foot. Is this also available on the PPC version?
If I'd looked closer at your review Dave I would have noticed one of the screenshots gives options for walking and cycling
I've been looking at this site for a few months now and just want to show my appreciation to the whole team for what I concider to be a very informative and professionaly organised site
Joined: 20/08/2002 11:51:57 Posts: 3859 Location: Essex, UK
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:31 am Post subject:
soweezy wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced by the rating you've given TTN5, for instance...
Dave:
Quote:
How do you find whether the maps are good ?
so how can you give "Map Detail" 9/10 ?
and...
if yo haven't road tested it how can you give 10/10 for "Ability to plot route and follow" and "Re-Routing Quality" ?
the only rating that can have any substance is the "Voice Navigation Quality" and you still gave it 10/10
I think Dave was asking for input regarding how you would judge map quality. Everyone who uses TeleAtlas maps from the same release will be using the same data. This will vary from place to place around the country. For instance the A130 road which was opened in 2003 has only just made the maps. If you have a road like this in your area you may regard this as unacceptable. We can only report on the roads we see.
Where do you get the impression that we dont road test from? That is exactly what we do. Dave himself travels into London at least 3 times a week, Darren is an IT consultant constantly travelling from client to client, and I also travel a lot. Thats part of why we do this. _________________ Mike Barrett
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: tomtom Eastern European maps
I asked tomtom support about the availability of maps for Eastern Europe yesterday. And the following is their answer:
The maps of eastern Europe will be released together with our new software.
We don't know which date yet but keep an eye on our website and as soon as we know
more,it will be published on www.tomtom.com
With Best regards,
The TomTom Customer Support Team
For many of us (citizens of Eastern Europe) this answer is really positive, I hope there will arise no obstacle to avoid Tomtom from keeping this word.
By the way I would choose Tomtom even for their GREAT support - the responses I had from them were fast and accurate (really not comparable with their concurrency, which I tried to contact too...)
Where do you get the impression that we dont road test from?
I know you road test software, but you can't have road tested TT5 in the UK to give a proper rating.
IMO writing an artical on TT5 is fine, with the writer giving his opinion, but to "rate" the software/maps without a full road test on various hardware is a waste of time and unprofessional. _________________ SW
Joined: 20/08/2002 11:51:57 Posts: 3859 Location: Essex, UK
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject:
soweezy wrote:
Quote:
Where do you get the impression that we dont road test from?
I know you road test software, but you can't have road tested TT5 in the UK to give a proper rating.
IMO writing an artical on TT5 is fine, with the writer giving his opinion, but to "rate" the software/maps without a full road test on various hardware is a waste of time and unprofessional.
Why do you think we havent road tested it in the UK?
Somewhere along the line you must have missed the fact from my earlier post that we have been using it for over one month now. _________________ Mike Barrett
Joined: 08/10/2002 09:12:29 Posts: 129 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject:
Dave, thanks for the answer about the shortest/quickest problem. I look forward to seeing the result of your test. This is one of those features that is certainly 'my bananas'! It's so infuriating in London to select 'shortest', then find one of the roads is blocked off, re-route, and then find TomTom taking you back to the congested main roads.
On the debate about review quality, could I add that I personally have always found the pocketgps reviews extremely helpful, knowledgeable and impressively fair-minded. I don't expect your reviews to answer all my questions or reflect my exact needs, but they are invaluable sources of information and expertise. In any case, I don't consider the review itself as the be-all and end-all of info on the product. The follow-up comments, for me, are as valuable as the review itself.
thanks for the response dave but i still take issue with your review.
you really arent very good at accepting constructive comments.
your "review" really is excellent for telling all and sundry what tom tom 5 is capable of doing,
but your review really doesnt reflect how well it operates or describes any quirks encountered.
i can tell everyone here how light a suzuki gsxr 1000 is, how many horsepower it produces and what the 0-180mph time is.....but so can my wife who doesnt ride a bike....but its people like fast bikes who manage to find the limitations and shortcommings of such machinery
my point is so can anyone...i could have written that review after having V5 for 20 mins, it still mount to little more than a spec sheet.
you have been handed a golden opportunity to really report how the software works and show all what its shortfalls are through you having it for a month as you suggest - but you only managed to find one fault as per your review.
"Problems Encountered
Currently there still is a limited choice of sound files for POI Alerts and TomTom haven't expanded upon this or created a feature to allow you to customise them with Ogg Vorbis files."
i really find it hard to believe there are no other issues with it such as post-code issues, or routing issues, or lock ups when used as we all will be using them....such as copilot 5 which most other people seem to have purchased the faulty copies with your version being the only perfect release
I have tried to create closer relationships with a lot of GPS companies, including TomTom, NavMan, Co-Pilot, Destinator plus many others. We are trying to forge relationships whereby we are part of the product development cycle for products that these companies produce providing a voice for our users views, comments etc. TomTom and CoPilot are currently the only companies who are actively persuing this with us, the other companies are not at the moment. "
nobody can be knocked for that and that is possibly a good position to be in, even though there maybe room for a conflict of interests, but maybe a stronger position is for those involved more directly with the manufacturesrs not to be part of the review team
as we all know, there are many priveledges and back handers going on in other review sites, it would be a great shame if the reviews were compromised over here because of being lent on by manufacturers in return for more favourable reviews.
and as for not making comparisions with other software, well that devalues reviews even more because what basis is there for potential buyers to make an judgement on new software if you wont say how it stacks up in general with the competition.
every review i have ever read in a car magazine or bike magazine, or low and behold computer mags all have subjective reviews relatively based on the competition to clearly establish a market leader or what the best is.
this only adds to the value of the review, and the trust of the readers placed in the reviewer
I think the point that maybe should be discussed is more whether a score should have been given to beta software?
Yes, by all means review it and report on it but as it is beta it should not be scored. Many other IT groups/magazines take this approach and it may be an idea going forward to adopt the approach that only final/released software is given a score. _________________ Rgds,
you're obviously being highly critical. That's your opinion. My opinion is we are unbiased across the range. If companies give us software (and hardware) to review, then we'll review it. If they don't we can't exactly go over and break their arms like the maffia in getting them to provide their products for review. Each application (and hardware) is tested to a high standard. Everyone has differing opinions on what they feel is the ideal software application so you're bound to get some people like yourself not like our reviewing techniques.
If you really don't like them to that degree, you do know you don't have to visit PocketGPSWorld.com don't you ? We're not forcing you to come here and read our reviews!
maybe if you were more critical and conducted reviews to the high standard you claim then you would discover many more issues as mentioned elsewhere in the forums in such as copilot 5, yet im sure you will poo poo that and claim its the hardware that screws things up instead of the buggy software
its not a case of if its the ideal software for me, sure im looking to upgrade from copilot 4 and i make my judgement based on what your glossy ads say, but more importantly what people say in the forums which very often is closer to the truth.
i await your disection and throwing your dummy out cos of critical comments
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