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France To Ban Sale And Use Of Speed Camera Warning Systems
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting - I thought one of the purposes of cameras, together with the signs, was meant to be preventative (yes, and a money-spinner I know Surprised ); removing the warnings seems like people in France will get fined/jailed afterwards rather than discouraged beforehand, so after any damage has been caused. But then the figures in Road_Runner's post suggest the preventative approach isn't working anyway.

And speeding by more than 50kph and driving over 80gpl are already treated quite seriously, so I'm interested in how they are racking those penalties up (they both already carry the possible sanction of on the spot licence confiscation IIRC).

I wonder if they will introduce average speed cameras? They seem to have the potential to calm things down quite well I would have expected, so be more effective, compared with the current and intended 'spot' cameras.

I have to say, as an Autoroute user mainly, that they seem pretty safe; I sometimes feel better on them than I do in the UK - but maybe the problems lie in the more urban areas?
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Scotch_Al
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: French radar speed traps Reply with quote

Road_Runner wrote:
Information collated and condensed from the French press.

It seems that as well as a ban on radar warning devices, the French government has decided to have the signs warning of radar speed traps, both temporary and permanent, removed from September. ... About a thousand new radar speed traps will be deployed before the end of 2012.


This website (http://www.lesfrontaliers.lu/edito-6636-les-radars-jouent-a-cache-cache-mais-ce-n-est-pas-tout.html) is aimed primarily at French and Belgians coming over the border daily to work in Luxembourg, and they make mention of several of the points stated above, particularly the removal of the warning panels.

They also say that a new form of mobile radar, mounted in cars (des radars mobiles "nouvelle génération" seront expérimentés dès cette année, notamment sur des véhicules en circulation) will be tested this year. A new type of the old VASCAR system, perhaps, or a radar-system that calculates relative speeds and is based on the police car's own speed?

There is an uban myth that if you question the accuracy of the detector then it has to be taken out of service and verified. Unable to check this, as I haven't found anyone willing to risk the supposed downside, which is that the court will impose a higher penalty on anyone found guilty after refusing the statutory on-the-spot fine.

Also, if the detector's accuracy hasn't been verified within the 6 weeks prior to your being caught, there are supposedly grounds for appeal but, again, I can't find anyone to confirm this.
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juliaosborne
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the French rules say, 'field of view' are we correct in assuming this means 'the field of view' as in the area of the windscreen and windows? Or that it's within the possible field of view of the driver as he sits in the seat - are we correct in assuming that you could have a satnav navigation device without French speed cameras mounted below the windscreen? I note it refers to 'screen's - this has the potential to also relate to radio systems if it is not just the windscreen field of vision.

Also, would you be done in France if your satnav was carrying other countries speed cameras, for example I guess most of our journeys might start in the UK, could you be done in France for carrying a device with UK camera locations. The rules quoted don't appear to limit the speed cameras that can't be carried only to France. This might sound daft, but may have ramifications.

I have always carried my satnav in the very bottom RH corner of the windscreen - as close as I can get it without breaking the connectors. I tend to feel that it is a safer position for it than having it somewhere on the dashboard - say left of the steering wheel. When it's in the windscreen corner I can refer to it with a minute glance when I'm navigating and scarcely have to refocus my eyes, I've driven cars which have them mounted on the dash, and it's really awkward - you have to move your eyes completely off the road to refer to the output and it always feels really dangerous in comparison. I think the French are wrong to suggest that the windscreen is a bad place for them - yes perhaps not slap bang in the middle of the screen, but lodged almost of eyeline in the bottom corner of the screen seems safer than putting them out of view on the dashboard. IMV. Someone has put a Brodit mount in my car - I might now use it in France, but in the UK I still prefer to carry the satnav in the windscreen.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read somewhere that the references to 'field of view' do not apply to satnavs.
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beeceegee
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren wrote:
I read somewhere that the references to 'field of view' do not apply to satnavs.

correct! It's about halfway down page 2 of this thread, posts from "Froggy" then me
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Darren
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, read so many different forums discussing this that it's easy to forget where I was!
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juliaosborne
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beeceegee

I thought that I'd also seen the reference in this thread - is that just what you read into the rather awkward bable fish translation in the OP or do you have a more reliable reference. I would be pleased to have it confirmed by an alternative reference.
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Froggy
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juliaosborne wrote:
beeceegee

I thought that I'd also seen the reference in this thread - is that just what you read into the rather awkward bable fish translation in the OP or do you have a more reliable reference. I would be pleased to have it confirmed by an alternative reference.


Navigation devices are specifically excluded from the 'Field of view' regulation.

(autres qu’aide à la conduite et à la navigation type GPS) ie, other than GPS navigation devices and to assist driving
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juliaosborne
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Froggy thank you :-D I much prefer my navigation device in the windscreen.
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Road_Runner
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:48 pm    Post subject: Panic over? Reply with quote

Latest: From today's 'Le Monde' website.

It seems the French government is having a re-think in response to public and political pressure. The Minister of the Interior is back-pedalling; it now seems that the removal of radar warning signs won't happen, and that in time the panels will be replaced with an 'educational' radar, indicating the motorist's speed, without penalty. Much like our smiley/sad faces perhaps. There is however no mention of the removal of the radar traps themselves.

Significantly, the government is now in discussion with the manufacturers of radar warning devices to see if they can be used as aids to road safety, such as warning of debris on the road; the idea is to share information about road conditions with other road users, to use equipment like this in an intelligent way, and put an end to 'blind punishment'. The idea of banning radar warning devices looks like being binned permanently, as being too repressive.

The Prime Minister is also trying to set up a project to find out what causes the road accidents.

An outbreak of common sense across the Channel? Any chance it might spread here?

Incidentally there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that GPS receivers were included in the proposed ban on radar warning devices; only detectors were targeted, and as you will see even that idea seems to be out of the window now.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: Panic over? Reply with quote

Road_Runner wrote:
Latest: From today's 'Le Monde' website.

Significantly, the government is now in discussion with the manufacturers of radar warning devices to see if they can be used as aids to road safety, such as warning of debris on the road; the idea is to share information about road conditions with other road users, to use equipment like this in an intelligent way, and put an end to 'blind punishment'. The idea of banning radar warning devices looks like being binned permanently, as being too repressive.

Interesting - thanks for the update.
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An outbreak of common sense across the Channel? Any chance it might spread here?

To be fair, they've never proposed a ban on GPS based devices, only radar/laser 'detector's types.
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Incidentally there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that GPS receivers were included in the proposed ban on radar warning devices; only detectors were targeted, and as you will see even that idea seems to be out of the window now.

I'm not sure that is true though. The two biggest companies campaigning in France were Coyote and InfoRad. They only sell GPS based warning devices, not 'detectors'. Coyote use a connected tech that allows its users to warn each other when they spot a temporary trap but they are not devices that 'detect' any laser or radar signal.
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Road_Runner
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject: Plus ca change? Reply with quote

It's got very political over there, so anything could happen.

One parliamentary group for example says that 90% of road accidents in France are caused by 'inappropriate' speed, and that basically French cars are built to go too fast.

The group is also looking at automatic speed limiters, and banning the use of hands-free devices; but whether any of this will happen is a moot point. They recognise however that they have a problem; approximately 4000 deaths occur on the roads of France each year. I'm not sure how that compares with our figures, or even if it is fair to make a comparison, but by any yardstick, it's not good.

I suspect very little will change, certainly in the short term. Drive very carefully in France, that's all I'm suggesting.
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Scotch_Al
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Panic over? Reply with quote

Road_Runner wrote:
Latest: From today's 'Le Monde' website.

... in time the panels will be replaced with an 'educational' radar, indicating the motorist's speed, without penalty. Much like our smiley/sad faces perhaps.


In fact, such things aren't new in France: a couple of years ago, while driving down to Spain, somewhere between Narbonne and Perpignan I saw an overhead sign that flashed up the equivalent of "Too fast (my reg. no.)!" I did a doubletake and nearly lost control of the car, I was so surprised. I wonder if it causes more accidents than it prevents ...
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Road_Runner
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: This topic rears its ugly head again..... Reply with quote

I thought this was dead and buried, but it seems not.

Today (4th January) the French Interior Minister Claude Geant introduced several new road safety measures, which come into force tomorrow 5th January 2012.

The one of particular interest to us is that the 'possession, transport, and use of radar warning devices is prohibited' - it's a 1500 Euro fine, and six points on the licence (if you're French, presumably). Radars will not have warning signs, but there will (may?) be a sign indicating a 'danger zone'.

There is no word in the report (in Le Monde) whether the ban specifically refers to GPS devices as well as true radar detectors, but the wording does not exempt them specifically from the regulations.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all the more confusing when there are 'radar' detectors that detect radar speed traps and the French use of 'radar' as a term for all speed traps Rolling Eyes
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