F20 Map Updates - NOT FREE

[TerryWalsh]

Hi Robert:

Whilst I do not like to pay excessive amounts for maps either I think your argument is not quite valid. Software upgrades to fix problems have been free (service packs). New maps are not. A more valid comparison in my view would be somebody buying MP3 playing software. You certainly do not then expect to be able to download all music free of charge.

That said I do believe that Navman and others do set the map pricing so that it becomes more attractive to upgrade to a new system.

An even worse example of this sort of thing is probably ink jet printers, I know people who buy a new printer rather than pay the crazy prices for ink cartridges.

Terry Walsh

[robertn]

Don't be fooled into thinking that the compelling reason for a map update is new roads. The compelling reason is that the data has been corrected. These corrections should be free (similar to Microsoft software updates), however the technology currently avalible does not allow this, so it is acceptable to intergrate the fixes with updates and charge for it.

What is not acceptable is charging the full retail price. As I stated in my previous post, there are reasons why Navman do, but for the sake of this discussion they are completely irrelivent.

[MaFt]

in all fairness, they can charge what they want. if the majority of users think it's too expensive then they won't make any profit as very few will be sold. however, seeing as navman are still in business it is safe to assume that their price for new maps is fine for the majority.

MaFt

[zzf00l]

[/quote]seeing as navman are still in business it is safe to assume that their price for new maps is fine for the majority.

[zzf00l]

Sorry about getting the quotaion in the wrong way round, it's early morning .... pity we don't have an edit button... I would have corrected it!!!

[Anita]

[robertn]

Again you have missed missed my point. Do you people ever listen to what is being said. I would hate to be in a room with you

What I have stated several times in this discussion is
1) Navman a free to charge what they want for an upgrade and I totally support them being allowed to set their own price. .
2) What they charge is essentially irrelivent to this discsussion

What this discsussion is really about is have the customer been mislead, and if so, have they been mislead to the extend that Consumer protection laws have been broken.

My personal belief is yes, Navman (an other map suppliers) are guilty of misrepresentation, and consequently they have broken consumer protection laws.

[Tim Buxton]

robert, I can't see your argument at all.
_________________
Tim

[MaFt]

ok then, show us the documentation in either paper, on the box or on their website that led you to believe that the map updates would be free.

or was it just an assumption that you could get it for free as opposed to being 'misled' - there's a big difference there.

MaFt

[robertn]

If you READ the posts, you will relise that I have NEVER suggested that map updates should be free.
So to reiterate a point in single words so you can understand me.

1)The products were advertised that map updates would be made avalible
2) The price of the map updates was not discussed at the time of purchase/advertisment.
3) In the electronics and software world, updates/upgrade are NORMALLY significantly discounted form the full purchase price typically 50% or less depending on the time since the last upgrade. 20%/annum is common for maintainance agreements.
4) The Navigation sector is the ONLY software sector I know of that sells "updates" for the same price as a new product.
5) ergo - the consumer has been mislead.

Now it's your turn, having read my statements, why do you believe the consumer has not been mislead? Remember these things - I totally an unconditionaly support the freedom of a commercial organisiation to charge any amount for anything they choise to sell, and further, I support their right to chose not to provide and sell anything they choose not to sell.
What my beef is is that they have a obligation not to mislead the customer, by intention or omission.

[Tim Buxton]

I'm just concentrading on your third point here. Map data is not software; it is data.

I'd have left 'electronics' out of the argument, too. When we bought a Sony Playstation, we paid full price. The PS2 we bought a couple of years later was also full price; no upgrade price.
_________________
Tim

[MaFt]

[filgreen]

[robertn]

Consumers are not experts, Manufacturers must not mislead by omission -If a customer reasonably assumes something about a product, then the retailer is held responisble if that assumption is not valid. The number of people with expectations of lower upgrade prices than currently being offered clearly shows the expectation of a large number of consumers is quite different to what the price is - therefore are a large number of people makeing wrong assumptions.

So the question I ask you is this - How did all those people make the wrong assumption - My argument is they were mislead.

No one has yet to provide a defence against this, beyond Caveat Emptor, which is not a valid defence in the courts.

I am happy to agree to disagree :D _ the only way to know for sure would be a court case and legal process.

To all the people who feel ripped off enough to be bothered, take your product back to the retailer, and push for a refund (or discounted map upgrade) under the "not fit for purpose" laws. You never know your luck.

[mcogman]

This is going to be a long one I'm afraid.

I'm with robertn here. The manufacturers have a responsibility as well as the customers. it is a nightmare out there to try to identify the good from the bad and then to make sure you get value for money. I can quite understand if someone who is not so versed in the ways of GPS gets completely lost. It's no good saying to someone that they must investigate every nuance of the market - you don't and I don't do that every time we buy something so why should we assume that the average punter for a GPS does? As I say, the manufacturers have at the very minimum a responsibility to be clear as to what they are selling.

It may be worth pointing out the action of Michelin who have just announced a free upgrade to their mapping data for certain buyers of their GPS systems.

They must either see a niche in the market that their customers would appreciate, ie updated maps within three months of purchase, or they have a conscience about the quality of the maps being currently issued by the map suppliers and they are trying to reduce the flak.

It won't take long before the more well-heeled members of this business, who have been raking in the money over the last few years, to see that they might lose market share and start to think of alternative and better updates.

For example, I have just been "caught" by Navman in that if I purchase updated maps for my 530, I will only have to spend a few pounds more to get an F20. However, I don't want to buy new hardware as the 530 I have is perfectly adequate, with its TCM and remote control etc. All I want is some reasonably priced updated maps for which I would be happy to pay £50 or £60 every year.

Software IS a different matter but by not providing any software update for my 530 and a relatively expensive map upgrade they are making sure I look at alternatives. I know they want to sell hardware but all they are doing at the moment by keeping the map prices where they are, is making sure I look at all the other manufacturers for their "special deals". If I am being lead into spending the best part of £200 then I may not buy Navman the next time around.

That isn't good marketing in my eyes - but then, I'm one of these people who think that retaining the customer is a good idea so I've got to be wrong.

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