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Safety Camera Fees - Details
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SL33PYH34D
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Joined: Dec 17, 2003
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Location: Sandhurst

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: How do you stop this? The consumer will decide. Reply with quote

cherryton wrote:
In the end 'the consumer' will decide......who remembers Video 200, Philips Laser Vision and Betamax? ALL were much better than VHS.....but which format won in the end?

As it happens consumer choice had little to do with the whole Video 2000/Betamax/VHS war - it was primarily the video rental companies who decided to standardise on VHS which killed off Betamax and Video 2000 in the consumer market. Philips Laser Discs didn't arrive until after the video format war had ended.
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Oneway
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theres a Gatso on the A40 in and out of London, next to B&Q, do I get my free membership. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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cherryton
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: How do you stop this? The consumer will decide. Reply with quote

[quote="SL33PYH34D"]
cherryton wrote:
it was primarily the video rental companies who decided to standardise on VHS which killed off Betamax and Video 2000 in the consumer market. Philips Laser Discs didn't arrive until after the video format war had ended.


Off forum really ...but its the old chicken & egg situation....if all consumers had bought Betamax...the rental company’s would have been forced to make a switch to that format or be left with lots of films that no-one would hire.....
Anyway my point was not really aimed at video formats it was only mentioned by means of example (and it was more to do with Film corporations and their tie ups with 'hardware' manufacturers in any case).

Anyway think most people will get my drift. Out of 100 new products brought to market less then 1% actually survive. The speed camera database has a strong chance of being as good concern, until it reaches near saturation point - but for some reason I don’t think that will ever happen - we could of course ask the government ...any guesses what the response may be?

I was just wondering how you stopped the 'competition'? If you cant beat them- join them perhaps? if there was an 'official' advert on Ebay perhaps it would also recruit some new forum members and some new camara positions? just a thought?
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andpad
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Mitac Mio 269 Reply with quote

Sounds interesting and I would like to sup-port the site by subscribing to your speed camera update service. Can you tell me which of the database downloads works with the Mitac MIO sat navs. Many Thanks
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pip510
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Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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Location: Sheffield South Yorks

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: How do you stop this? The consumer will decide. Reply with quote

cherryton wrote:
http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=camera+database

This throws up 4 different 'databases' that are all, bar one, cheaper than the proposed £2.00 download charge.

I know cheapest is not always best.....but you don’t really know what you are getting with any 'database' that you buy.

In the end 'the consumer' will decide......who remembers Video 200, Philips Laser Vision and Betamax? ALL were much better than VHS.....but which format won in the end?

If the data is sound i.e. accurate and complete the concept is a winner...if not the whole forum could crash&burn as the 'core' of the site is a common wish (commercial or otherwise) to help others, while getting a bit back yourself - a classic 'Win Win' situation.

The bottom line is that the consumer is king - if they don’t want to buy, they wont buy. Price is seldom a genuine reason not to buy. Service and convenience are usually ahead of price in all the research.
Given the choice between a 'cheap product at a cheap price' OR a 'good product at a good price' ...most people opt for the latter.

Until the Feb update it will not be possible to accurately judge what the outcome will be. Until then perhaps the Forum Directors should be allowed to focus on making the Data the most robust that it can be.
There are many other excellent aspects to the site - But I have not read much about how good these are. So perhaps some credit should go to the guys. Commerce is not a bad thing - Even Russia and China see that now.... The UK is the 4th richest 'country' in the world...how does everyone think we got to be this way?

Wish I could edit this post mind you...bound to have made a few spelling errors that I will spot later...or have pointed out to me...

Question



People have been selling the database on ebay for absolutely ages! In fact that is how I came to know of this web site in the first place. Now that I know that this resource is here, I would much rather give my money to this site than someone on Ebay that is just taking the spoils from someone elses hard work. Yes I know some of you will say that you have done a lot of hard work putting in camera locations also but hey so Have I.
Perhaps PGPS should take up this thread though and put an advert on Ebay at least it might draw in more traffic for the site which in toe could lead to more members and hopefully more people to submit camera locations Laughing
Now Surely that can't be a bad thing can it??
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RicoBunyon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Speed Camera Data Reply with quote

chick wrote:
I understand that the Speed Camera data is freely available from the Road Safety Partnerships around the uk, their data includes the exact map reference for each location both Static and Mobile camera locations.


As you only understand that it's available, I can assume that you've not actually obtained the data from the respective sources. Neither have I, but I would question what format is the data going to be in?

chick wrote:
Therefore it would be a simple task to collect this information from each partnership and transfer the data into a single file of the correct format.


It would only be a simple task if the data was presented in a set and known format, something like XML, so that it could easily be converted programatically. If it's just a web page, then the task will be far from simple.
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Scenic
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you may have made a mistake allowing people to submit rapidly for the free membership. I was out of the country at the time with RAF for last couple of months so missed all the fun. Have used the database religiously on Trips from Bristol to south of Edinburgh and at most been a couple of cameras marked probably should have been down as Temps which werent there. On the trip this time over 20 incorrect the majority cameras used to be there and removed at least a year ago and others just put wherever they liked to get the free membership. The majority of Faults are on the A1 from the M18 junction up to Scotland. I will have a play with POI editing software and see if i can send a list in of incorrect ones ah to have been here last month Smile. So my concern is now it is becoming a pay service at the moment for my trip of 380 miles it is less accurate than it was two months ago.


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pipski
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't pretend to have read this whole thread so sorry if this is a repost or has already been covered.

I've only had my StreetPilot C320 since Christmas and the first thing I did was get the camera database and POI uplaoder from this wonderful site. Now reading the planned charge scheme for the camera database I have to say that it's disappointing.

Firstly it mounts up to nothing better than the speed cameras being there to take our money in the first place.

Secondly the database is missing many cameras already and this is only from what I've noticed around Bradford and Leeds over the last 2 weeks. If the plan is to charge for the database then the database absolutely has to be accurate and up to date.

Also the information collected already is down to many of the users contributions of time and effort to upload new camera details so do they get paid too? (admittedly not myself as I'm a newbie)
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joni
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Joined: Jun 03, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just returned from a trip to Coventry (which I know quite well) and am quite concerned that none of the cameras, which have been on the A 45 for years skirting the city around Tile Hill way, (and on previous versions of the database) were registering on this trip. According to the Camera partnership site they exist and they were certainly physically there. A database that is correct only by percentage is worth what?
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pip510
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Location: Sheffield South Yorks

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pipski wrote:
I won't pretend to have read this whole thread so sorry if this is a repost or has already been covered.

I've only had my StreetPilot C320 since Christmas and the first thing I did was get the camera database and POI uplaoder from this wonderful site. Now reading the planned charge scheme for the camera database I have to say that it's disappointing.

Firstly it mounts up to nothing better than the speed cameras being there to take our money in the first place.

Secondly the database is missing many cameras already and this is only from what I've noticed around Bradford and Leeds over the last 2 weeks. If the plan is to charge for the database then the database absolutely has to be accurate and up to date.

Also the information collected already is down to many of the users contributions of time and effort to upload new camera details so do they get paid too? (admittedly not myself as I'm a newbie)


The simple solution is the pip is to submit the camera's that you have seen to PGPS then every one else will benifit and at least you will get some free months subscription that way its a win win situation.
You get free subscription, every one else gets to know where the camera's are etc, cant see a problem in doing that? Can You? Rolling Eyes
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bbbill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been meaning to add to this debate, but was tied up and unable to get to it..


noting the heat, and the principle that cameras are bad, and most people try to negate their value free of charge, notables such as safespeed and pepipoo , whilst u can become members of both to help support the site, there is basically no charge. perhaps another way forward, and its not to late to change,

is to speak to the companies that supply the equipment.. offering their customers free down loads .

I dont think the companies, such as tom tom, are really up to keeping their data base up to date..

In return they pay u an anual sum.. Thus helping with the costs. U see i guess its better for them to pay you ten grand a year , instead of emplying two or three people 20 grand a year to keep their site up to date.


As a seperate and personal matter, I just paid ten quid, as a donation, will that be taken into account ?

rgds
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Diplo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: A Suggestion Reply with quote

Here's a suggestion that I think would resolve a lot of peoples' problems:

Why does PGPS not keep the camera database free for say another 6 months or a year? During that period you can extend the invitation to users to submit cameras for a free subscription when it does go commercial. This will has many advantages:
  • It will increase the accuracy of the database enormously as users will have a real incentive to submit camera positions. To be commercially viable the database really does need to be accurate and this will help ensure it is.
  • It will give existing users more time to get used to the fact that it's becoming commercial and will be seen as a sign of good will.
  • It will give more time to have a proper dialogue between users and PGPS about what they want for the future of the database. The current model has many problems and discussion may help solve these. For instance, how about getting on a small group of trusted members from around the country who will monitor accuracy of cameras in their area to maintain standards? They would do this in return for free subscription or other incentives.
  • It will give PGPS staff some time to look at perhaps finding a commercial partnership for the database to help reduce costs and perhaps even keep it free.
Seriously think about this because I think it will solve many problems.
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JLee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: A Suggestion Reply with quote

Diplo wrote:
Here's a suggestion that I think would resolve a lot of peoples' problems:

Why does PGPS not keep the camera database free for say another 6 months or a year? During that period you can extend the invitation to users to submit cameras for a free subscription when it does go commercial. This will has many advantages:
  • It will increase the accuracy of the database enormously as users will have a real incentive to submit camera positions. To be commercially viable the database really does need to be accurate and this will help ensure it is.
  • It will give existing users more time to get used to the fact that it's becoming commercial and will be seen as a sign of good will.
  • It will give more time to have a proper dialogue between users and PGPS about what they want for the future of the database. The current model has many problems and discussion may help solve these. For instance, how about getting on a small group of trusted members from around the country who will monitor accuracy of cameras in their area to maintain standards? They would do this in return for free subscription or other incentives.
  • It will give PGPS staff some time to look at perhaps finding a commercial partnership for the database to help reduce costs and perhaps even keep it free.
Seriously think about this because I think it will solve many problems.


It will also give more time for someone who wants to keep the db free, as was originally intended, to go and set up a free service. Maybe that's why the charges were sprung on us with such little notice? Because people then feel like they have no choice but to cough up or do without cameras.

The more I read this thread the more I think it's out of order for the work of a voluntary community to be cashed in on in this way - especially with so little consultation.

If it's about the time taken to manage the db I'm sure there are plenty of volunteers out there who could help by adding more automation to the camera submission process or for the manual tasks needed. And I can't believe that hosting costs is a problem that can't easily be worked around. No, the more I think about it the more this looks like a chance to earn a quick buck out of the efforts of a lot of volunteers. Disgraceful if you ask me.
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dougconran
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Distance Selling and other regulations Reply with quote

I have a couple of questions but, before I start, for the record I do not think that it is unreasonable to charge for something of value; I believe that the issue of how the locations and donations were obtained in the first place has been adequately addressed.

For myself, I will probably update fairly infrequently and so use the £2 per download option (hopefully discounted by spotting a few cameras :D )

When the database was free there was no question about its value, even if it was not particularly accurate (although I'd have to say that I found it very accurate in predicting where cameras WERE but less accurate regarding cameras that had been removed).

However, as a commercial offering I want to know that I am getting value for my money - how do I know that I am?

2 questions spring to mind that would go some way towards convincing me of that value:-

1. What is the PGPSW policy regarding purchasers who get flashed by an unrecorded camera? I'm sure that they have the litigation side sorted out but what about the customer relations aspect? For me, if they are prepared to refund the purchase price of the database (I know its small but it is the principle that counts) as well as provide a month's subscription for the donated camera location, that would go a long way towards convincing me that they have a product that they have confidence in.

2. (Generally) When purchasing over the internet vendors are subject to the Distance Selling Regulations which, IIRC, provides for the customer to be able to return the product if they are unhappy with it. Many small software vendors get around that requirement by providing a 'try before you buy' option which I don't think is available here. How are PGPSW going to deal with this aspect? Again, a positive response to this issue would go a long way towards convincing me that the product has value.

For those who would argue that I will know what I'm getting because of what I've had before I would point out that (a) no earlier version has been 100% accurate and, more to the point (b) the whole point of paying for a new database is to get something that IS more accurate.
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solo12002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a newbie, Im back in the debate again, and Im just about to order my sat nav via a link on this site.

I have looked at the link on E Bay myself and have to say that not everyone can be trusted on E Bay. Secondly I would be concered that the guys on here Darren and the members have collected the data to write the database to find that it may indeed be sold on E Bay.

Forgive me as I dont know all the in's and out's of this, but I was thinking of the Road Angel Nav syste, which charges £49 pounds a year for updating speed camers, I also looked at the AA Natsav system as darren thoought I should with a view to deciding which system I would go for they charge £70 plus per year, so is £2 a download or £19 for a yesr not a good deal??

From what I have been able to look at it is, and maybe having some form of membership will stop others making a profit from , your work?

philip
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